need help w/ BF assy in Hell

[Frankeinstein]

OK, I know its gonna be a stupid question but I am getting my butt kicked in Act1 HELL.
Now before you all start to say get this, wear that, MF for this...

Lets back it up to reality for a bit. I don't get to play 20 hrs a day, I will not go to EBAY... & buy items, & I have limited items for trade. Most items worth trading I am wearing ATM (on char). Soooo, what should I do?

Go back to NM & just walk thru acts3-5? (super easy for her right now)
Stay in Act1 hell & tough it out till she gets more experince?
remove some of the skill/defence items & wear more MF in NM?
Start over w/ a new char?


BTW, she's a lvl74 Blade Fury Sin
venom max
SM max
DS near max
Fade about 8 pts
rest of points as needed in other areas

I have trangs armor on merc, helps to keep him from dying so much (holy freeze merc) or should I wear that instead?

I wear Hwains armor & belt (+to def & life)
goblin toe
peasants crown
ll ring w/resists
mf ring w/ resist
llammy w/ +shadow skills & some resist
+ias gloves & other mods
weapons need to be better (NM Anya worth gambling w?)
& ryhme shield


should I scrap merc & switch to amother type?
then I would have to "train" him
LVL em up so he could wear the gear.

[Bonescorpion]

What weapon are u using? Is it a claw or non claw weapon. I can assume that it isnt because u have no CM. Ok what exactly is going wrong, are u getting killed to easy? Cant kill anything? Cant hit anything? Just so I can get an idea. IMO one of the major flaws of the bf myth is that cb is important. IMO it isnt as important as Deadly strike (except on bosses). According to most knowledgable people they say that CB with BF is 1/8 the hps (assuming less then a 4 player game). In hell because of immunities thats gonna go to 1/16 of the hp's (according to AS its 1/16 hps for missile weapon, is bf a missle weapon?? If it is cb only does 1/32 hps in hell) On a low end monster that is pretty weak. If u can get some kind of weapon that has decent damage and then get a high amount of deadly strike u can consistently double the physical damage part of ur attack. Mix that in with ur venom and u are doing a nice clip of damage.

When I was planning my Bf assassin out this is what I had laid out for her (I also am quite item poor).

Guilluames
Higlords
LanceGuard
Gore's
Shaft
Bartucs
String (crappy 10% d/r)
Some nice 3/2 10% cb gloves

Now with that setup (minding u that i maxed out cm for the ar and venom as well)
I was doing roughly 600 + 500 (apprx poison)

Ok assuming u are lvl 74 u will have 77.75% of dealing a deadly strike and dont forget about the 20% of doind cs form mastery. So that would be a total of 82.2% of doing double damage, not to mention that I still have 60% (kinda a nice side effect from guilluames and gore's)
So assuming 600 damage U are gonna average around 1100 damage + ur venom + cb - enemy resistances.

I would also recommend shopping two shadow claws, and casting them on weapon switch for ur fade, get ur d/r up, it couldnt hurt.... Just my opinion of course

[Frankeinstein]

What weapon are u using? non claw weapon. I can assume that it isnt because u have no CM.What exactly is going wrong, are u getting killed to easy? Cant kill anything? Cant hit anything? Just so I can get an idea. IMO one of the major flaws of the bf myth is that cb is important. IMO it isnt as important as Deadly strike (except on bosses). According to most knowledgable people they say that CB with BF is 1/8 the hps (assuming less then a 4 player game). In hell because of immunities thats gonna go to 1/16 of the hp's (according to AS its 1/16 hps for missile weapon, is bf a missle weapon?? If it is cb only does 1/32 hps in hell) On a low end monster that is pretty weak. If u can get some kind of weapon that has decent damage and then get a high amount of deadly strike u can consistently double the physical damage part of ur attack. Mix that in with ur venom and u are doing a nice clip of damage.

When I was planning my Bf assassin out this is what I had laid out for her (I also am quite item poor).

Guilluames
Higlords
LanceGuard
Gore's
Shaft
Bartucs
String (crappy 10% d/r)
Some nice 3/2 10% cb gloves

Now with that setup (minding u that i maxed out cm for the ar and venom as well)
I was doing roughly 600 + 500 (apprx poison)

Ok assuming u are lvl 74 u will have 77.75% of dealing a deadly strike and dont forget about the 20% of doind cs form mastery. So that would be a total of 82.2% of doing double damage, not to mention that I still have 60% (kinda a nice side effect from guilluames and gore's)
So assuming 600 damage U are gonna average around 1100 damage + ur venom + cb - enemy resistances.

I would also recommend shopping two shadow claws, and casting them on weapon switch for ur fade, get ur d/r up, it couldnt hurt.... Just my opinion of course

Yep all the above!

I just haven't found or have been able to trade for decent weapons for starters. Bnet can get weird when it comes to trading... I have been SP for years, then I got cable & hooked up on bnet cause it was fun playing in groups... I have plenty of gera on my SP chars but can't bring that over to Bnet.

anyway, I really need to build up my $$$$ so I can start to gamble again. but since they nerfed gambling for uniques way back, is it worth it in the long run?

oh yea weapon is
coldkill hachet as main &
some low end claw w/ 1-178 lit dam (switch)
claw ended up being better than axe I was using 1st

thx for replying w/ some real questions & answers rather than uber stuff I just can't get.

btw, where would the best place to MF for bartucs be? or anything on your list...

which leads me to another question is there a list of itemsTC out there... I guess this would be in the FAQ section of the forum so I will check there next.

Again thx for responding, I feel there is some hope left in this char.
My semi retired assy katara lvl 86 did finish Hell in 1.09 but she was a Ma assy which I founs much easier to kill with. The Blade fury sin is a nice variant that still fits the assy profile.

I wish they had a sword skill to add to the tree cause ninja's do use samari swords!!!

[Frankeinstein]

forgot to ask, you using c/c or c/s?

[Bonescorpion]

I was c/s, sorry i forgot about that I had a swordback hold for the open wounds.

Ok next question what is ur current damage output listed in ur stat screen? Can u seperate ur venom damage plz :). Also are u ladder or non ladder. If u are non ladder u might be able to pick up a fury claw very cheap, they arent that popular anymore and they have the all important 33% deadly strike and ITD. Lanceguard most people just throw away, I would just put up a lost in the trading forum, especially for the cheap stuff (lanceguard, rockfleece (nice cheap substitute for shaft), guillames) that will give u a nice flying start.

My assassin stalled at about 67, kinda got bored but she is ready to start up anytime soon. Maybe after my current pitrunner assassin is done :). Give me a whisper on either *bonescorpion or *bonescorpion2 ...........

[Salo]

I noticed that goblin toes are excellent items for this build. I am level 23 claw shield, it roared through normal, have several +3 max/ar sc's (legits) on her, claw mastery is like level 18, so they multiply to a level that makes it auto-hit in normal. The toes made diablo die about 20x faster, and even did well when was near a sliver. People do not realize how good these things are im realizing. probably the best boots in the game, im thinking better than gore riders actually (exception is if you have no other way to deal open wounds or rely on it as your top effect)

I'm looking into getting a pair of Steelrends. people say the str isnt worth it, but well im rather richie rich on uswest and I am planning on using enigma. (goblin toes and engima give +45% faster runwalk)

i also do not plan on using guillames face. i find that having no mf creates for intense boredom at this very elderly stage of my diablo1 - diablo2 career. So i circumvent that situation by using a Shako with topaz in it. my gear plan is as follows (note, cheaper suggestions are below)

Shako
7% ll 123 AR 35 Life rare ring
224/20dex Raven frost - goes on most of my chars
Amulet - up for grabs, with Fade, dont need res all particularly, looking into atma's (bosses with cblow and Amp do take on a lot of damage)
Enigma dusk shroud
Chaos Suwayah - its ethereal, good high roll, sick damage forget the amount
Belt - im considering: Verdungo, Goldwrap or Nosferatu
Gloves - I have 10% cblow with 6% LL ones that were previously useless (no ias or mana) but now are pimp. Steelrend ill switch to if over 45% ED and somone is willing to trade.
Boots - Probably end up with gores. Toes are so awesome though for high hp monsters.

Max Claw Mastery
None in SM - eh, people find them irritating in parties, and im a veteran bnet player, can get by without the protection.
Max Venom
Max or near max DS
3 pts into Fire Blast (1 more shot from all my DS's, creating a 6th trap. DS's i can place according to radius, more often the amount of times fired will kill vs its radius, its not a CE skill with one centerpoint needing a big radius, plus I have +4 all skills on my build.)
Near max or max fade.
With the build i propose ill have 18% dr at least from gear, and 24% from fade, good enough to get near the 50% i feel.
Might merc

---




i suggest trading for +max/ar charms. too many people are saying "go all effect!!" it just isnt so. Claw mastery gives a good boost to damage, if you have then some strong deadly strike and critical strike, that good boost plus good base damage means fast killing. I know chaos claws are out of your league, and im guessing fury probably are as well. try imbue quest when you are a higher level on some Suwayah's. then again, if you havent put points into claw mastery, forget that I guess.

my understanding of this build is that AR is very important and that none of you people have any to show in hell. when you play an effects character, you have to make sure you hit it constantly, setting off the %chance for the effect. its more important in an effect character than in a straight damage dealing character who might hit 1 out of two, yet kills things because of strong damage.

suggestion: angelic ring and amulet, 1 rare ring with AR and 7%+ leech. the crown of thieves at 12% is rather nice if you deal decent phys damage. guillames if not. some would say leeching is useless on a low damage dealing type, but if you shoot at 6 frames and you can make most hit, leech helps as youre going. another suggestion is use a Might merc. double damage, then deadly strike, double again. 4x damage and leeching works well.

i duno, im just not happy with peoples suggestion on the usage of crescent moon runeword thing, or non claw based builds that also do not solve the AR problem. you only need like 2500 in hell if you get ok levels. sounds like a lot, but if you have some item that gives +% ar (maybe a circlet) and angelic ammy and ring, you can hit it easily. using claw shield or weapon shield means you put a bit into Dex and so that further goes up.

itd is junk, try killing a boss!

[Frankeinstein]

BS 46-76
BF 85-139

w/ venom

BS 224-461
BF 441-510

things are getting a bit better in NM, I took off some defence/ resist/damge items for more MF. I up to about 80% MF. & started doing meph & baal runs in NM.

Found an Eth crown of thieves last night & a Kudo bow. (can't use the bow but might be good for trade later.

Gave crown to merc!!! very happy w/ that :thumbsup:

now merc just slays everything it hits

merc gear:

Eth Crown of thieves (def 451)
Eth Honor mancatcher
Trangs armor


this is helping quite q bit as he is now a unbelieveable tank

now I just need to work on my gear


BTW, Bone Scorpion, you play east or west? I'm on east.

[Bonescorpion]

I am east.... I disagree with the goblin toes, they will make a difference in normal and nm with cb activated it does (1/8 or 1/16 hps depends on which source of info correct) but in hell with teh 50% physical immunities that is gona get halfed. While the cb is great on bosses it isnt that great on lower enemies. I mean some cb is good, but going all out is a mistake imo.

[Frenzied Bovine]

50% PI's have been removed in hell, but in exchange, monster hp's have doubled and tripled.

Haven't you noticed the lack of PI's?

[Bonescorpion]

Whoops, my bad, that I am almost positive that cb only does 1/16 when activated by bf......

[squigipapa]

NM runs can net you some really, really nice stuff! meph, eldritch, baal & many others can drop some great gear. I usually do pit runs in hell, however every now and then I go back to NM and mf for a while because it's so easy and so fast. I can load up with way more MF gear in NM also.
I say go back to NM and collect the gear that will make hell more bearable.

[Salo]

grr..... i get really edgy when people mess up Cblow. heres the rules.

Melee normal monster, 1/4 monster hp remaining
Melee end boss 1/8 or or 1/12 forget, which is absolutely enormous. try 4-5 players in game vs nm diablo, guy with the toes on makes the kill.

Ranged: 1/16 all the time any time any monster.

if a monster has 2000 hps in one player hell, and 8000 hps in 8 player (goese up 50% for each new player), youll do 1/16th of 2000 = 125 damage, and in 8 player you will do 500 damage from cblow. so in multi games it rox as a free bonus after you make a damage roll. (can be 1-2 fire damage sc, but it has to register).

thats how it works, and works better than it would seem.

[Frankeinstein]

Things are starting to look up for me. I traded for a Jade Talon early this morning. that brought my damage, ar, & resists way up from the axe I was using.

I now have 75% resist all in NM w/o fade! I may have paid too much for them, but it was worth it to me ATM. Killing meph was cake.

This also freed up 6 spaces in backback for now.

Guess I'm gonna need to make another mule now for the stuff I am starting to find.

[Bonescorpion]

grr..... i get really edgy when people mess up Cblow. heres the rules.

Melee normal monster, 1/4 monster hp remaining
Melee end boss 1/8 or or 1/12 forget, which is absolutely enormous. try 4-5 players in game vs nm diablo, guy with the toes on makes the kill.

Ranged: 1/16 all the time any time any monster.

if a monster has 2000 hps in one player hell, and 8000 hps in 8 player (goese up 50% for each new player), youll do 1/16th of 2000 = 125 damage, and in 8 player you will do 500 damage from cblow. so in multi games it rox as a free bonus after you make a damage roll. (can be 1-2 fire damage sc, but it has to register).

thats how it works, and works better than it would seem.

Funny maybe u should get edgy with urself, this is direct from AS
"Crushing Blow
This is a chance of reducing a monster's health by X% in a single blow.


-Default: 1/4th
-vs. Players: 1/10th
-vs. Hirelings: 1/10th
-vs. Champions, Uniques, Bosses: 1/8th
-with missile weapons: 1/16th
-The life removed is also scaled with number of players. So that if a monster has 450% more life due to 8 players (or whatever the value is) the life removed is further reduced by the same amount (450% would equal multiplying by 4.5 so the life removed by Crushing Blow is divided by 4.5).

So that 500 u are supposedly doing in hell 8 player game is really 500/4.5 or 111.11, cb = OVERATED on a bf build against low minions (kicker its total different, 1/4 is 4x more then 1/16), cb is great vs bosses however.

OK a zombie in act1 hell has hp's of 3238-6168 or an avg of 4703. Everytime u activate cb with bf u get 293 damage and dont forget that will scale down as the hp's go down. In a 8 player game the zombie will have 21163 avg hps.
A cb will do 1322.68/4.5 = 293, in other words the same damage. I would rather do a consistant double damage from my bf then sacrifice that for cb.

[Frenzied Bovine]

You can potentially do both if you wield Headstriker.. but then you lack Claw Mastery's ed% bonus.

[Bonescorpion]

Yes, which is why I preach deadly strike for this build. In the equipment that I listed I would still of had 60% cb. I am not saying that u shouldnt have it, but that its overated on a bf build. Deadly strike is more important. Frankenstein what physical damage is listed in ur stats screen now that u are using a jade talon.

[jmervyn]

I had been looking to sell off my Headstriker - my rune runs haven't netted me the ingredients for Crescent Moon or Delerium :rant: and I'm dissatisfied with the Marketplace.

But Angel Veil is 86 or 87 untwinked now, and for her combat rig she has a vanilla Bartucs on her 'weak' hand, and an eth Strength runic talons as the 'strong' hand. Venom doesn't seem to be as beneficial as I'd hoped, and she has to depend heavily on SM and Blessed Aim merc when running Haeph, but she doesn't have any problems against all act non-missile monsters.

I guess I don't understand what the problem is... my armor is a 4 ptopaz wyrmhide, and I was using a ptopaz tarn until fairly recently. I have yet to see gores or toes... sure, I've gotta run back sometimes, and I'm weak on LI's, but hey! Works well enough for me... in 1.09 my assns used to die to A3 bone dolls willy-nilly.

[Bonescorpion]

If u dont mind what equipment are u using??

[Salo]

Funny maybe u should get edgy with urself, this is direct from AS
"Crushing Blow
This is a chance of reducing a monster's health by X% in a single blow.


-Default: 1/4th
-vs. Players: 1/10th
-vs. Hirelings: 1/10th
-vs. Champions, Uniques, Bosses: 1/8th
-with missile weapons: 1/16th
-The life removed is also scaled with number of players. So that if a monster has 450% more life due to 8 players (or whatever the value is) the life removed is further reduced by the same amount (450% would equal multiplying by 4.5 so the life removed by Crushing Blow is divided by 4.5).

So that 500 u are supposedly doing in hell 8 player game is really 500/4.5 or 111.11, cb = OVERATED on a bf build against low minions (kicker its total different, 1/4 is 4x more then 1/16), cb is great vs bosses however.

OK a zombie in act1 hell has hp's of 3238-6168 or an avg of 4703. Everytime u activate cb with bf u get 293 damage and dont forget that will scale down as the hp's go down. In a 8 player game the zombie will have 21163 avg hps.
A cb will do 1322.68/4.5 = 293, in other words the same damage. I would rather do a consistant double damage from my bf then sacrifice that for cb.

yeah you wont do consistent double damage, however cb is easy to attain a high percentage. 10 blood 25 toes 25 rattlecage 35 guillame's face = 95% with stuff most likely everyone has on a mule. That's about game max as effects at 100% do not work 100% of the time, diminishing random formula.

deadly strike means highlord's wrath, an amulet that is very uneventful for this build. +1 skills, uneeded light res, just deadly strike really, some light damage. I find that 7% Etlich does quite a lot, although atma's will eventually be what im using if i dont get a good safety craft going. (blocking is neat) If it's that hard to kill, atma's will eventually kick in and that means it has a lot of hps, so phys damage musnt be doing that hot, thus needing more effect than 2x damage.

those numbers i spouted were from memory, i dont ever do melee so I had to guess the lower % of the unique and bosses. 1/16 is always from ranged, its overpowered if you have strong ar at 1/8. the summit also has INCORRECT wording on cblow at the end of the statement, something most people on forums wouldnt want to hear. It scales favorably in multi games, doing more and more damage. deadly just doubles and doesn't scale.

21163 divided by 16 = 1322.7 damage. PLEASE DONT TELL ME AS SAYS IT DOESNT SCALE THIS WAY. it was debated for a while and was determined by Kirsty and the forum ops of druid column that cblow scales favorably, it doesnt do the same damage, it doese 1/16 at ranged of whatever the monster's actual hps are. thats what i said the grr about, i knew someone was going to go along with the unedited release of the text on Arreat summit. Should i explain? hardly anyone listens to this explanation in the past. but here goes, if you look at the entire last paragraph on cblow, it is clearly explaining how hps and cblow damage scales up in 8 player mode. Then the last sentence reverses this whole thing. read it without the last half of the last sentence. If you look at the whole thing, it negates itself and is many lines of useless text if you take it as correctly written. the summit is not at all Blizzard and often has errors that never ever ever get corrected after the patch is released.

this guy probably won't trust me that cblow scales, but eh what can you do, it isnt a myth. dont base your characters on the idea that it doesnt, try it out, get a crushflange and put toes on and cblow gloves, put a rattle cage on. take off all damage dealing items and charms, go to hell with a few solo, then go to hell with 4 people in it. see what it does. you know that if a monster has 9000 hps, your normal mace isnt doing squat to it, especially with hell regen. bam, youll notice in melee (if you dont get pummeled to death before you hit it, lol, maybe you should put angelic pieces on first) you'll see the little poofie X blast thing and monster hps drop. that isnt 293 damage, that would be a sliver, notice it drop a chunk. (some monsters have varying phys resistance, just no more 50% global, amp and decrep bring it down to 0 according to many veteran posters/testers not below, so might want to try getting an item with amp charges, that maul thing has them)


anyways, theres how to show proof. long tedious, but better to just stack up on cblow and watch the exp rate fly up. act bosses really get squished if you amp them then high % cblow even after they hit the 1/4 to death on their life bar and you are doing 1/16 cblow damage. whew. thats it, I will never again will i hold the cblow flag for another forum, i gota take a dump anyways.

And i dont mean to be argumentative, i said this convo would cause a grr.... Deadly strike is a great mod to have, it just is harder to work into the builds most people have as they normally use lower resist items, Open wounds, some cblow and Venom. they dont really focus on physical damage. now if you got some botd etherea zerker axe with 390%+ on it, then deadly might be best cuz of diminishing effect on cblow. deadly is good, just well, hell is hell now and we need to cheat as much as possible with monster hps. time for that poop.

[Frankeinstein]

See I'm just the opposite. In 1.09, my MA assy walked thru hell all the way thru ACT5.
I ended up turning her into An MF assy at LvL 85. Now that hurt. but that was in SP. & I had nats, bartucs, skullders, etc ... all the good stuff.

but since the 1.10 patch & paying BF instead caus eit looked like a nice change...
I am not complaining, Just turned out to harder than I thought it would be in hell. If I end up just making a "low lvl MF BF assy" that would be fine, but I believe I can finish the game with her w/ some more work.

NOW THAT is Where I want to be!!! Then I will retire her.

Start a kicker or something else as a variant... Thought about making a terrorist... Fire bomb as main skill & see where that goes.

[Salo]

See I'm just the opposite. In 1.09, my MA assy walked thru hell all the way thru ACT5.
I ended up turning her into An MF assy at LvL 85. Now that hurt. but that was in SP. & I had nats, bartucs, skullders, etc ... all the good stuff.

but since the 1.10 patch & paying BF instead caus eit looked like a nice change...
I am not complaining, Just turned out to harder than I thought it would be in hell. If I end up just making a "low lvl MF BF assy" that would be fine, but I believe I can finish the game with her w/ some more work.

NOW THAT is Where I want to be!!! Then I will retire her.

Start a kicker or something else as a variant... Thought about making a terrorist... Fire bomb as main skill & see where that goes.

LOL Terrorist, kinda f'd up idea, being that so many die from them nowadays, however, more people die from Barbarians (invading outside forces such as um, US, eek, thats me), from assassins in general aka murders for hire. hm Terrorist build would good possibly.

Need a shield with 4 different facets on death explosion. No vitality, all damage. Fire blast.... hm. terrorists have guns, demon machine is like one. yeah of course traps you would need. maybe only fire traps and maybe a box cutter, like a dagger. kinda hard to make it obviously a terrorist. shall i say it? well you need some robes :) hahaha well hey, i dont see any french or indonesian terrorists, seems to be cloth wearing types for the past 30 years.

"we arent targeting middle eastern people as terrorist, no that would be wrong and an injustice, isntead we are just carpet bombing them and putting them in prison camps."

side note

[Bonescorpion]

U have link for that thread, I would like to see the testing and determine If i am wrong or not. I dont go to the druid forum, and seeing as this is the assassin forum, I havent heard any such thing. Doesnt mean that it isnt true. Also as I had stated in my initial equipment that i would have 82.2% +.375 per clvl after 76 of ds and 60% cb. This equates to about a 50% chance of doing double cb. If u remove the 28.5 % ds from that would only give u a 32.2% chance of doing double cb (if my math is correct).Gores and guilluames gives a free 30% ds so that would be why i would go with gores instead of goblins. The only time atmas would really be of help would be against anything with physical immunity, as amp cannot increase cb past the initial 1/16. So as far as pointless ammy's, I have to say that atma's is as usefull as highlords. Plz the link would be nice thx......

Edit: As I am thinking one of my issues about AS explanation of cb is it is kinda common sense that 1/16 of hps is exactly that 1/16 of hps. Simply because why would an explanation be needed to say that 1/16 of hps is different in an 8 player game then 1/16 of hp's in a single player game. A simple, cb always takes 1/16 of hp's off even in a 8 player game, would be a lot less confusing, guess thats just AS......

[Frankeinstein]

LOL Terrorist, kinda f'd up idea, being that so many die from them nowadays. assassins in general aka murders for hire. hm Terrorist build would good possibly.

Need a shield with 4 different facets on death explosion. No vitality, all damage. Fire blast.... hm. terrorists have guns, demon machine is like one. yeah of course traps you would need. maybe only fire traps and maybe a box cutter, like a dagger. kinda hard to make it obviously a terrorist. shall i say it? well you need some robes :)

side note

Well you get the idea...
Dusk shroud or quiltted armor, short boots, daggers, shako hat...
You be allowed to add pts in other skills to increase fire bomb. Of course you would have to use DA for the courspe explodesion.

Mind blast is a must & should be maxed for controlling the enemy.
Cloak of shadows for pulling the wool over their eyes

This would be very do able

I might have to experiment & then write a guide :idea: ;)

Would almost certainly have to carry a BoTD weapon LOL

[Salo]

Well you get the idea...
Dusk shroud or quiltted armor, short boots, daggers, shako hat...
You be allowed to add pts in other skills to increase fire bomb. Of course you would have to use DA for the courspe explodesion.

Mind blast is a must & should be maxed for controlling the enemy.
Cloak of shadows for pulling the wool over their eyes

This would be very do able

I might have to experiment & then write a guide :idea: ;)

Would almost certainly have to carry a BoTD weapon LOL

yeah in doablo 1 a mage outfit had some robe looking types if you wore a certain type of plate.

[Salo]

Edit: As I am thinking one of my issues about AS explanation of cb is it is kinda common sense that 1/16 of hps is exactly that 1/16 of hps. Simply because why would an explanation be needed to say that 1/16 of hps is different in an 8 player game then 1/16 of hp's in a single player game. A simple, cb always takes 1/16 of hp's off even in a 8 player game, would be a lot less confusing, guess thats just AS......[/QUOTE]



the link to druids understanding and most importantly, Kirsty's understanding (whatever she says is thoroughly and insanely tested, she is one of the best/biggest forums posters for many years), well the link is buried under many months. it was solved long ago. we had a logic debate about the paragraph and determined that 1. it was flawed, as it is impossible to both scale up yet be "Divided by" at the same time. so whatever the case is, its a negating sort of sentence. 2. it was determined that 90% of the paragraph was swaying towards 1/16 is 1/16 of monsters scaling up. 3. it also was determined that because it was flawed and never ever edited again, it was not a source of information that could be trusted, and so was tested in melee and show to be close to 1/4 damage in 4 player game on some sort of act 1 monster in hell.

my explanation of why the whole huge explanation is this: Crushing blow was greatly changed from 1.06 - 1.08 and from 1.09 to 1.10. It had to be spelled out, but the person wrote it incorrectly. its like one of the worst errors out there that effects many small builds heavily. the biggest nerf of Cblow was the removal of it working with fire explosion in the blast of an explosive arrow shot via kuko/demonmachine or the lil hot ravenclaw normal bow. this pissed off MANY. one of THE worst nerfs in the game for many die hard hunter builds and off build types using kuko or demon, look at the old Blowecro, he was so intensly strong with bone prison's reflecting the cblow. now he is average joe.

I see you have made a high % of deadly strike, which is good as that acts as an automatic AMP without having to cast it in a way. having it less than 40% is rather unreliable i feel and not worth it, as you miss often in hell normaly as iti s.

[BIGeyedBUG]

Salo, I'm afraid you're probably wrong about Crushing Blow scaling. You mentioned the research done several months ago, and I believe what you are saying was correct at one point. I don't believe it is now. I have this information from several reliable sources, the most complete and easily referenced being this one: http://www.hut.fi/~tgustafs/weapondamage.html#CrushingBlow

Note also the effect breakdown by weapon and target.

Tommi's info matches my experiences with a BF Assassin very well.

But you never know... If you can dig up contrary information from Kirsty I would enjoy hearing more about it.

[Salo]

Salo, I'm afraid you're probably wrong about Crushing Blow scaling. You mentioned the research done several months ago, and I believe what you are saying was correct at one point. I don't believe it is now. I have this information from several reliable sources, the most complete and easily referenced being this one: http://www.hut.fi/~tgustafs/weapondamage.html#CrushingBlow

Note also the effect breakdown by weapon and target.

Tommi's info matches my experiences with a BF Assassin very well.

But you never know... If you can dig up contrary information from Kirsty I would enjoy hearing more about it.

first off he's going against arreat summit's quote "Crushing Blow is calculated after your normal damage." he says its before. so thats just odd.
And he thanks someone named King's Spectre, whoever the hell that is, for telling about it no longer scaling. great. thanx king's spectre for messing it up worse. great source.

this statement on arreat summit:
450% would equal multiplying by 4.5 so the life removed by Crushing Blow is divided by 4.5.

Lets think about it exactly as written, for the last time:
it looks as if you are right, but why the heck explain about multiplying then dividing if its going to be same number damage as 1 player Cblow?

we then look at the first few lines:
"The life removed is also scaled with number of players. So that if a monster has 450% more life due to 8 players (or whatever the value is) the life removed is further reduced by the same amount"

Notice the words, further reduced. according to you and this blue page of confusion you linked, cblow never does more damage ever, never Further reduces in 8 player games. clear that it says otherwise.

King's spectre so graciously told this "Guru" that it does not scale. Some other dolt on druid forums a few months ago said, "It scales by looking at the 450% and then dividing by 4.5" "I wake up by going to sleep".

scaling means a linear relationship. One goes up, other goes up. not too complicated. its the last dumb line that got everyone f'd up. the stuff in the parenthesis is TRYING miserably to say:
so 450% is the new monster life, cblow scales up by taking off 4.5 times more damage of whatever your going to cblow normally at.

Finally:
I was in a 7 player normal diablo game, my claw was dinky. i had verylittle damage and no venom even yet. I was doing no damage to diablo. neither was anyone else, they really sucked too.

then i got out the goblin toes and the Cleglaw gloves with crappy gear on rest. I took off half its life in a couple of seconds and then compressed it rather fast even after. then Lister in 8 player NM. my claw has amp on it, i tihnk he has some DR, it amped him, I was doing nothing against him, people on the run were horrible and couldnt dent him, i put on the Toes and 10% crafted gloves and he goes squish rather instantly at 6 frames and high AR.

it works.

----

this is the single most confusing part of diablo2 ever written on arreat summit.
ranged is really hard to test. kirsty agreed with me that its better now not worse, it just needs damage first to trigger.

-------------
side note: where did he get that table that has more info on cblow vs monster and people than Summit has?

[BIGeyedBUG]

You are making three arguments, really:

1. That CB scales because the explanation on the AS would be unnecessary if it didn't scale.

I think the explanation is there because it describes how the game actually works. CB is set up to take a percentage of remaining life. If there weren't special coding,, it would take that percentage of life regardless of the number of players. Instead of reducing the percentages, the designers dealt with CB by dividing it by the same number by which monster life is multiplied. I'm not a programmer, but I would guess that this must be easier somehow than just changing the formula. I agree with you that the wording is garbled. As confused as it is however, the sentence would have NO reason for existence if CB did scale. Your argument comes down to, "CB must scale because a literal intepretation of the AS information says that it doesn't.

2. That it was settled on another forum several months ago that CB did scale.

Who, what, where, how? And most importantly, when? I am positive that CB did scale in some fashion in previous versions of the game. I have also frequently come across the complaint that CB builds no longer work in 1.1. Considering the enormous life and resistance gains of monsters in 1.1, CB would be pretty amazing in 1.1--if it scaled. Because of my interest in Blade Fury, I've read a lot about unusual mods--Open Wounds, Slows Target, CTC, and CB. The consensus in everything I've read the last few months is that CB doesn't scale. I merely referenced Tommi's guide because it was convenient, concise, and a great resource in general. He and his sources are people who've plumbed the guts of this game since its beginning. (And even before: I've seen Tommi's name on guides for Diablo I. And even you probably know who Jarulf is.) So far you are the only intelligent person I've run into who has seriously argued that CB scales. Now, that doesn't prove you're wrong. But it should make you wonder...

3. That CB has kicked *** for you personally, in mult-player games on a couple of occasions.

Not enough information here. What I'd suggest you do is outfit a character in as much off-weapon CB as you can, discard your weapon, and go punch on some zombie types in Act I Nightmare. Do it with one player in the game and with eight. Then tell me if their life meters ever go down by 25% in the 8-player game. Or better yet, work with a cooperative hostile. That way you can tell each other exactly how much life is being taken each time you see a purple splash.

I am entirely satisfied I know what your results are going to be. If I'm wrong I would love to hear about it, and there's a bunch of people who'll be very, very interested. I would predict that most weapon-builds would get CB very soon after you announced your findings.

RE: sidenote on different table values. I asked on another forum about this. According to Jarulf (who is credited for the info on both Tommi's page and the AS) GFrazier misinterpreted the data that Jarulf sent him. It should be fixed on the AS someday. Here is the thread: http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=8&t=2930&

[Salo]

hm ok maybe it does not. if data shows it doesnt i guess it doesnt. it seems odd though that it doesnt... i cblow rather often 70%+ chance on my bfury guy with high hit %.... and i do more damage than I should if what you are saying is correct.

I wish someone could pull out the data and such. OW and cblow tables are very off, the wording at ASummit is not even close to making grammatical sense. I just don't trust the nerf info until I see some numbers. people didnt even know if its before or after damage dealt, and most dont know when DR% is checked when a cblow goes off. if its before a damage dealt, really it could be like Holy freeze, it deals cold effect because it has no damage, or its before damage or something right?

Cblow builds were lossed I am guessing because the all cool and awesome Kuko/demon machine blast no longer carriers the cblow. what a dumb nerf. it wasnt overpowered, hardly a soul made those builds besides geeky forums people like myself.

well, thanks for the continual boost to my d2 knowledge, im not set on cblow though yet though. OW im less of a fan of even though I have it on my build in 2 spot. (chaos claws ethereal suwayah's)

[Frankeinstein]

Well back to original topic at hand. Though I did learn some stuff about CB... I think :scratch:

Anyway, some ppl smiled on me over weekend. I got a low end Bartucs w/ a lit jewel socketed in it. Hey it was free & much better than what I was using.

Also got from another NAts helm. Gave up the peasant crown but seems to help me to last longer in Hell pit runs.

Yes I am able to hold up in Hell act 1 pretty good now in 1-3 player games. Still need to be careful around ranged, cursed attackers. I hate when I walk into an area & get nailed with 30 arrows & cursed at the same time, no time to react... :(

but anyway, MFing is still slow, items are slowing showing up but not they are being dropped by the super unigue monsters. They seem to be drooped by minions more often... Is that possible? or is it I am just not seeing it when they do drop.

I am using traps so its not like I'm always there when they drop anyway.

Oh yea, I see the same thing as in 1.09 on drops. instead of every other drop being Iseharts case, it's Sigons Armor.

[Jarulf]

A few notes. CB do indeed scale and will scale down with the exact same ammount of damage as the life of the monster was scaled up due to more players. It is the EXACT same ammount, so won't get "better" or "worse" with more player as seemed sugested in one post.

Also, there was NO scaling in previous patches.

The error on AS on missile weapons is that the 1/16th is versus bosses only. It is 1/8 for normal cases and 1/20 versus players and hireling. Basically, for a missile atatck, the ammount of life removed is half that of a melee attack.

Finally, starting with 1.10, CB is applied BEFORE normal damage is applied.

AS should be updated any day now since I sent in correct info recently.

Finally, a small note on OW for those that has read Tommi's site, he had an error in that OW with missile attacks do ONLY half the damage versus bosses, not versus players and other targets (as with CB for example). One may think it is strange but that is how it is (and AS and thus I since I am the source of the info is correct :) ).

[BIGeyedBUG]

A few notes. CB do indeed scale and will scale down with the exact same ammount of damage as the life of the monster was scaled up due to more players. It is the EXACT same ammount, so won't get "better" or "worse" with more player as seemed sugested in one post.

Also, there was NO scaling in previous patches.
.

Jarulf, I think we're in agreement, but we're using the term 'scale' in opposite ways. (And now I think I know why the AS wording is so opaque. :scratch: ) My understanding is that in the current patch the actual, absolute amount of CB damage--let's say 50 points--will neither go up or down with the number of players in the game by the time it is actually applied to the subjects life. Or, to put it another way, CB becomes less effective proportionately when there are more players. Is this correct, or should I start marinating some crow?

[Jarulf]

Jarulf, I think we're in agreement, but we're using the term 'scale' in opposite ways. (And now I think I know why the AS wording is so opaque. :scratch: ) My understanding is that in the current patch the actual, absolute amount of CB damage--let's say 50 points--will neither go up or down with the number of players in the game by the time it is actually applied to the subjects life. Or, to put it another way, CB becomes less effective proportionately when there are more players. Is this correct, or should I start marinating some crow?


I think you got it :) See a thread in amazon forum where I posted an actual numerical example as well. I have not checked the exact wording of AS, or rather, the exact wording is what I wrote to Geoff and I always figure he should rewrite it in a proper way, but many times he just copy and paste so I need to be more carefull in the future :)

[BIGeyedBUG]

Thanks for the reply! /Big sigh of relief/ I wasn't looking forward to eating that crow.


...I always figure he should rewrite it in a proper way, but many times he just copy and paste...

I heard that! :grrr:

[jmervyn]

If u dont mind what equipment are u using??

Only what I've found.

1. vanilla Bartucs on her 'weak' hand
2. Ethereal Strength runic talons as the 'strong' hand (+3 LS)
3. Dual +3 shadow claws on switch
3. 4 ptopaz wyrmhide
4. Great diadem w/ +2 skills, 15% res all, and a couple of other things
5. Assorted rare rings, mainly concentrating on res or leech
6. Highlords ammy, was recently the Disciple ammy
7. Disciple boots

The really wierd thing I've noticed is that my damage from Venom needs to be reset every so often, and the only way I can manage this is to hurl both claws to the ground after casting Venom, then picking up Bartucs', and lastly the Strength claw. I'm betting that it has something to do with the mods from the Bartucs' getting applied properly to my one point of Claw Mastery.