TS + Dtail - one charge or three?

[Frenzied Bovine]

Here's a quick question for all you TS/DTailers.

Which provides better damage per second figure? A single chargeup TS followed by dtail, or a triple chargeup TS followed by dtail?

At level 20, the Tiger Strike skill:

1st Charge: +480%ed
2nd Charge: +960%ed
3rd Charge: +1440%ed

At level 20, the Dragon Tail skill is +240%ed

Clearly the second charge is 2x the first, and the third charge is 3x the first's ed. This figure is multiplied by Dtail's ed, making the gap between charges wider.

I don't recall offhand what the fastest FPA one can get their dtail to - I believe it actually has a speed penalty of 50%? I think the fastest chargeup FPA is 7.

With a 10 frame dtail (figure pulled from thin air) and a 7 frame chargeup..

In 17 frames an Assassin can release a 1*TS/DTail
In 24 frames an Assassin can release a 2*TS/Dtail
In 31 frames an Assassin can release a 3*TS/Dtail

More accurately, in the time it takes for an Assassin to charge and release 3TS/Dtail, they can have released 2x 1TS/Dtail - that's assuming my thin air figures even approximate reality. The way I see it, the faster the dtail kick, the more a single charge TS/Dtail is benefitted - the slower the dtail kick, the more a triple charge TS/Dtail is benefitted (as adding chargeups matters less, comparatively, in terms of overall time to release).

So I guess the question is.. is 2x (480%ed x 240%ed) better than 1x (1440%ed x 240%ed)..

It's probably more complicated than that, but my brain hurts! Heeeeeeelp!!!

Edit:

This is gonna give me a headache, but i'll hack JRichard's example to suit both situations:

1x TS charge

MinDamage = (220 + 150 - 20) / 4 * (100 + 480) / 100 + 83 * (100 + (220 * 120 / 100) + 480) / 100
MinDamage = 350 / 4 * 580 / 100 + 83 * (100 + 264 + 480) / 100
MinDamage = 87 * 580 / 100 + 83 * 844 / 100
MinDamage = 50460 / 100 + 70052 / 100
MinDamage = 504 + 700
Min Damage = 1204

Because we're using Dtail, we multiply the result by the Dtail bonus to find the damage done in the area of effect.
Dtail AoE MinDamage = 1204 * 240 / 100
Dtail AoE MinDamage = 288960 / 100
Dtail AoE MinDamage = 2889

That's the AoE damage of Dtail. [snip]


3x TS charge:

MinDamage = (220 + 150 - 20) / 4 * (100 + 1440) / 100 + 83 * (100 + (220 * 120 / 100) + 1440) / 100
MinDamage = 350 / 4 * 1540 / 100 + 83 * (100 + 264 + 1440) / 100
MinDamage = 87 * 1540 / 100 + 83 * 1804 / 100
MinDamage = 133980 / 100 + 149732 / 100
MinDamage = 1339 + 1497
Min Damage = 2836

Because we're using Dtail, we multiply the result by the Dtail bonus to find the damage done in the area of effect.
Dtail AoE MinDamage = 2836 * 240 / 100
Dtail AoE MinDamage = 680640 / 100
Dtail AoE MinDamage = 6806

That's the AoE damage of Dtail. [snip]


2889 vs 6806, or roughly 42% of a triple TS charge's damage.

So if you can complete a 1xTS + Dtail in just under half the time of a 3xTS + Dtail, you're dealing the pretty much the same AoE fire damage per second?

My brain is melting..

What the heck can I conclude from this? Um.. I think it's saying that the damage of a single chargeup dtail can be equal or better if:

x = chargeup frames
y = dtail frames

2(x + y) < 3x + y
or
2x + 2y < 3x + y
or
y < x

Sigh. Am I making ANY sense? I think I seriously botched the maths up there.

It looks to me that to make single TS + Dtail viable, you either need to charge up slower than normal, or release faster than is probably possible. Otherwise, the extra two chargeups add more damage for the time they take to complete as opposed to releasing immediately after the first charge.

[Frenzied Bovine]

Just extending the calculations to the 2-charge case


MinDamage = (220 + 150 - 20) / 4 * (100 + 960) / 100 + 83 * (100 + (220 * 120 / 100) + 960) / 100
MinDamage = 350 / 4 * 1060 / 100 + 83 * (100 + 264 + 960) / 100
MinDamage = 87 * 1060 / 100 + 83 * 1324 / 100
MinDamage = 92220 / 100 + 109892 / 100
MinDamage = 922 + 1098
Min Damage = 2020

Because we're using Dtail, we multiply the result by the Dtail bonus to find the damage done in the area of effect.
Dtail AoE MinDamage = 2020 * 240 / 100
Dtail AoE MinDamage = 484800 / 100
Dtail AoE MinDamage = 4848

That's the AoE damage of Dtail. [snip]


4848 vs 6806, or roughly 71% of a triple chargeup's damage.

Just doing some quick math, it looks worse right off the bat.

[Naliworld]

Hm...interesting findings. Assuming you have an ideal 4 monsters in the DTail radius, you'd end up with:

1 TS charge = (11556 + 1204) / 14 frames = 911 damage/frame
2 TS charges = (19392 + 2020) / 21 frames = 1019 damage/frame
3 TS charges = (27224 + 2836) / 28 frames = 1073 damage/frame

DTail has no speed penalty...in fact, it requires even less IAS than you would need for TS to reach 7 frames(as the base frame of Kicks is 12, whereas the base frame for claws is 13). The cap is 7 frames, though.

IMO, 3 TS is still the best option.

[Nosf]

i use 3 TS charges.. i think its the best =]

[Frenzied Bovine]

Hm...interesting findings. Assuming you have an ideal 4 monsters in the DTail radius, you'd end up with:

1 TS charge = (11556 + 1204) / 14 frames = 911 damage/frame
2 TS charges = (19392 + 2020) / 21 frames = 1019 damage/frame
3 TS charges = (27224 + 2836) / 28 frames = 1073 damage/frame

DTail has no speed penalty...in fact, it requires even less IAS than you would need for TS to reach 7 frames(as the base frame of Kicks is 12, whereas the base frame for claws is 13). The cap is 7 frames, though.

IMO, 3 TS is still the best option.

Thanks for that Naliworld! Hmm, I wonder where I read about that DTail speed penalty then?

Your calculations seem to do a much better job of highlighting the question (shame I can't figure out if either of us is correct!).

The big issue for me is not so much damage over time, but safety. What I was looking for was more "Is 1 charge _as good_" rather than strictly better. The DTail release knocks back your opponents and gives you a little breather in which to TS/release again. One of my (admittedly many) big gripes is getting three charges up before your opponents cut you to peices. Against single targets it is certainly better to charge three times, but it's the packs of big bad uncloakables always sent fear through me as a DTaloner.

If a quick charge/release strategy is nearly as good, I may just end up using it anyway so that i'm keeping my enemies on the back foot more often.

[jrichard]

If it helps you any frenzied, i currently have a Dtail hybrid who mostly uses no TS charge-ups. I even left TS at one pt for the build. For her, it's the safety issue you mentioned. I'll use Dtail to kind of push through a group using the knockback to keep the 'sin safe. Stopping to charge TS gets her rapidly into trouble if the group is too large. I tend to use a dtail without TS to thin the groups out and then charge a level 1 TS (level 16 with skills iirc) to finish off what's left or to handle smaller groups. Personally, i think she has a faster killing speed this way. She saves time by not being in hit or block recovery imo.

jrichard

[Frenzied Bovine]

Hmm.. DTalon is +138%ed.. DTail is +240%ed.. my talon was usually listed as about 600-1000 with Myrmidion Greaves.. this gives me a good idea what to expect for my fire kick damage.

What do you do about fire immunes, though? My concern with using charge 2 of PS is the same as using DT - vulnerability while charging up.

Perhaps it won't matter? DT deals physical damage as well. As long as the KB part of the explosion works, you can effectively deal with one monster at a time anyway. Sort of like a leap + leap attack barb.. or a howl + zerk barb.. play keepaway with the pack while you hammer on one.

Maybe a DTail + DTalon build, with DTail used versus packs? Atma's Scarab would help both cases by reducing physical resistance - in the case of DTail this has a multiplicative effect on the fire damage dealt :)

Hmm I always thought DT/DT was kinda redundant.

[jrichard]

Actually, i posted the build here:My perfect Pvm Hybrid (http://forums.rpgforums.net//showthread.php?t=129405) I believe the uncharged Dtail damage with that is ~3300 to 5600.

btw, sorry, i havent gotten to actually testing the ormus's robes with Dtail thing you asked about in another thread. I've been busy trying to bring all the c/c attack speed stuff together into one document. I would imagine that the bonus from Ormus's will get applied at the end of the equation as the damage isn't fire until then. I'll test it yet, but i would think that you'd get the physical damage from the kick damage equation, multiply it by the Dtail bonus and then multiply that by the bonus from the armor. I'll get to it this weekend and say for sure.

jrichard

[Naliworld]

Looks like you were right about the speed penalty, Frenzied.


Major oversight on the kick speed portion of this document.

Dragon Tail has a penalty of 40 to the WSM when figuring kick speeds. If you have a WSM of -30 from your claws, when using Dtail figure the kick speeds with a WSM of 10. I realized that i had forgotten this as i was going through testing for the c/c attack speed document i'm posting.


http://www.rpgforums.net//showthread.php?p=1390347#post1390347

This is pretty major....in other words, it means that BoS is the only option for DTailers trying to get to 7 frames(which would be quite important for a DTailer using 1 TS charge, given that you're using DTail more frequently to a DTailer using 3 TS charges).

[jrichard]

yeah, it's a stumbling block for my hybrid plan, Nali. :)

I'll have to go back to the drawing board on that character. I think this may be the build that needs to take advantage of equiping a fast claw first and on the right followed by a very slow claw on the left. It's a bug imo, but might be the only way to manage this. Have to think on this one.

jrichard