Theory of 1500 base Life [Archive] - Diablo 3 & Diablo 2 Forums

twn_domn

08-02-2004, 21:18

An example shows the common misunderstanding of v1.10 novices:

-ƒenris
-Member
-Join Date: Dec 2003
-Posts: 715
- Oh, and 500 vita is only 1500 base life on a hammerdin, after a CTA bo you
-will have about 2400 or so if your CTA is high? Then, a low level oak from
-charges, maybe 3k life? Explain how you're getting 4.4k

The truth is, for a hammerdin, you can achieve 1500 Base Life without spending 500 stat pts in vital.

Correct me if the following calculation is off:
0. Assume the hammerdin is lvl 90.
1. We Spending 422 pts into vital. to produce 1266 life.
2. 1266 life + 2(life)*90(character lvl) + 55(starting life) = 1501 life

At this point, you have base 1501 life without wearing any items. Now, if you wear Annilus charm and pump 10 str points into str, you can wear a breast plate or mage plate Enigma. Once you wear Enigma, it grants you enough str to wear HoZ or other famous items.

As to Dex., I understand there might be problem to max out block rate. However, Def. is really a matter of probability to begin with. I have not test that out.

With the typicial hammerdin equipment, it is possible to reach 1700 (conservative estimate) or higher. Then with small charm of vital., it's possible to gain 20 life each. With 20 of these charms, it's possible to gain another 400 life. This can push the life to 2100.

Then with that kind of life, after a lvl 18 BO (or higher) using Call to Arm, it is possible to produce life higher than 3000. I have not calculate the possiblity of 4000 life.

This thread is more for the purpose of starting a discussion. Correct me if my math or my assumption is incorrect. I might have miss other ways to gain vitality.

WvX_leader

08-02-2004, 21:32

all I know is i have heard of paladins achieving about 2400 life WITHOUT BO and/or oak sage. I dont really care how it works out in the math world - but it does. So 3000+ life could be achievable with an enigma dusk or mage or something with low str, and a good build. I have a feeling fenris is a very good dueler btw.

LovelyGods

08-02-2004, 21:41

Me / Drew / Jason are all examples

with our pala we reached 2500+ life,
drew had 2600+
i had 2588 life.

so it is possible. at lvl 89 or 90 not even 99

twn_domn

08-02-2004, 21:56

Me / Drew / Jason are all examples

with our pala we reached 2500+ life,
drew had 2600+
i had 2588 life.

so it is possible. at lvl 89 or 90 not even 99

Is that...
1. before wearing any item & charm
2. after wearing item & charm before BO
3. after wearing item & charm after BO
? Please explain and ty.

Raven-Hood

08-02-2004, 23:57

My cleric lvl 86 hcl has 386 vit, with only stormtrek's 15 vit shoes to add to hp/vit. Only has around 1200 hp. Not sure why you need that much more vit to hit 1500, I am working on it though. I think if I were to hit lvl 99 somehow, I would definately break 1.5k hp.

On theotherhand, I could invest in dex for max block (haven't yet) and not need the hp as much because I would be taking 1/4 the total phys damage.

Raven-Hood

Kazuya-Mishima

08-02-2004, 23:57

Interesting topic- (wonders* if i was an infuence-hehehehe :) my hammer pally has 2.740 hp w/o cta so its very much possible. I could have way more hp if i had bettter combats with life (45 for ex.) and didnt use raven-and used botd for vita pr another bk ring. Or also if i was lvl 99 instead of 89 (im almost 90 tho). {*note u can also have max block with this vita- because i do :) Its actually possible to get over 3.1k hp w/o cta -especially at 99 using jah'd gear.

mrJ

09-02-2004, 00:55

Is that...
1. before wearing any item & charm
2. after wearing item & charm before BO
3. after wearing item & charm after BO
? Please explain and ty.Those numbers all fall under option 2, that is their life, fully geared, without any BO. As Kazuya says, it really is possible to reach even higher numbers, my pally is living proof. In full anti-hammerdin/necro gear, my v/t gets 3051 life, without BO, Oak Sage, etc, and I don't use any Jah'd gear.

If you have the gear (Expensive if you want to be more effective i.e. not using plain 20 life scs, some of use max/ar/life scs, others combats with +life), level enough (85+), and tweak enough for stats (base strength, keeping dex only has high as you need it and being very precise/stingy, hopefully with plenty of +dex from gear), if you can meet all of these "requirements" then you should certainly be able to meet and exceed your expectations.

Diminished-Soul

09-02-2004, 01:58

Me / Drew / Jason are all examples

with our pala we reached 2500+ life,
drew had 2600+
i had 2588 life.

so it is possible. at lvl 89 or 90 not even 99

I never recall Jason having 2500 life...if so he was easy.

He told me like... 2100.

LovelyGods

09-02-2004, 06:12

ok maybe not jason but sombody else had that kind of life.

remember i don't remember names lol...........:lol:

Diminished-Soul

09-02-2004, 06:25

ok maybe not jason but sombody else had that kind of life.

remember i don't remember names lol...........:lol:

Manuel Does... you ninny

Halbreed7250

09-02-2004, 09:42

I lied: i sit at 2485 at level 86

tl998

09-02-2004, 12:34

Umm how easy is it to get the items needed for your 2.4k life? How kind of things do you have to sacrifice? I only have 1011 life with items, but I do have 95, 90, 95, 90 resists in hell and max block. What's a good amount of life for some who wants maxed resists in hell and max block? I'm level 81 with 5 unused stat points.

mrJ

09-02-2004, 14:06

Wurmer

09-02-2004, 14:20

My level 89 v/t sits at around 2K maybe a bit more. That's with pretty decent gear. He was made before 1.10 so he's not built around enigma or other godlies that came with the latest patch. Obvsiously those new items should help you to get above the 2k life barrier pretty easily.

In my mind though, there are no questions about it, to reach numbers such as 2500 + hp you need dedication in builtding your character and good wealth. One of the most important aspect for reaching high hp is imo, your charms setup. That's where you will spend most of your wealth. Combat charms with hp or 20 vita sc with secondairy mod such as lighting resistance are not cheap and people who are trading them usually know their worth. In conclusion, to reach those numbers you need to be wealthy and patient.

Siguesigue

09-02-2004, 16:56

1.09 VT - 2280 life, no BO.

His strength is obviously higherhan is necessary, but I wouldn't remake him, flawed characters have character.

tl998

09-02-2004, 17:03

Ok assuming I don't own any charms...what kind of life can I expect?

twn_domn

09-02-2004, 19:02

WvX_leader

09-02-2004, 20:12

Items that help:

Verdungos [40 vita]
Shako [about 112 life]
Charms [a LOT if you can afford]

With those ALONE you are looking at another 230-1000 depending on charms

Simple math: 40*20=800 for scs

Anksun

09-02-2004, 20:16

I have about 1700 life. (i think it's more like 1750 but i cant go and see for now)

My paladin is level 89. He is at a blocking of 64%. (I'm working on this one now)

You dont need that much dext to get max blocking if you managed to get an annilihus and a ravenfrost. With Shako and those two, that's +40 dext right there for me. (18 all stats anni :) )

Strenght goes in the 130 with equipment. (base of about 90-95)
And all the remaining in vitality, (about 420 with equipment)
Actually, i would gladly switch 10-15 of those points to get max blocking since at this point, 10more % of block would be better than 50 life. Level 90 comming soon, should help on this area.

And i have max resists (75 all)
_________________________________

With all this said: I'm wearing stuff for magic find: Skullders, Shako, War travs, switch is alibaba, ... So if you dont go for magic find, i'm guessing 2000 life and more with max resists and blocking can be easily achieved with proper equipment.

Ragnarod

09-02-2004, 20:49

tl998, at lvl 90,
1. We spend 422 pts into vital. to produce 1266 life.
2. 1266 life + 2(life)*90(character lvl) + 55(starting life) = 1501 life

So, you can have 1501 life as a Naked Paladin, no gear, no charm in the inventory.

Lvl 90 Naked Paladin:
str 25 (base)
dex 20 or higher
vit 447 or higher
energy 15 (base)
First of all, this is wrong, you get 2 life every time you lvl up, but since you start at lvl 1 and not 0, you'll get 89x2 life at lvl 90, 1499 life

The goal of this pt distribution is to be as stingy as possible in terms of dex. Already many of us have informed that you can achieve max block rate with very minimal spending on dex. Yes, there are many chars who have achieved 2k ~ 2.5k life with items. What are the vit. score of these chars when they are naked? That's what I would like to know. How many of us are sane enough to have base str and pump vital. to higher than 440?
Having a high base vitality doesn't mean having more life in the end, which is what's really important... Why do you care so much about this? I wouldn't call a build flawed for not having base strength, or higher dex, if in the end it has more life than mine...

Since I didn't have anything interesting to do, I checked my V/T stats, he's lvl 89 and has 10 stat points still unassigned:

2608 life, 516 vitality with items
2098 life, 439 vitality without items, but with charms

Base stats are 25 str, 71 dex, 419 vit, 15 en

After lvl 14 bo: 4117 life

He has max block, 49% dr and all that. He would have more life if I didn't go with the Redeemer in the end, that forced me to use a Highlord's, instead of a +2 amulet with stats

gzvernon

09-02-2004, 22:12

In full anti-hammerdin/necro gear, my v/t gets 3051 life, without BO, Oak Sage, etc, and I don't use any Jah'd gear.

What IS "anti Hammerdin/Necro gear?"

Meaning, is it possible to get 50% magic Damage reduction just like regular damage reduction? Tell me how you can resist a hammerdin's attack or necros so we all may better defend ourselves against those chars.

Halbreed7250

09-02-2004, 22:33

1.09 V/t= 2256

twn_domn

09-02-2004, 22:36

--you'll get 89x2 life at lvl 90, 1499 life

TY for correcting. Actually we have more spare pts from quests. So.., we can achieve 1500 life even faster than lvl 90, but 90 seems to be a good number to calculate.

--2098 life, 439 vitality without items, but with charms

Uh.., didn't we confirm that w/o item and w/o charm we'll get about 1499 to 1501 life? You have 2098 life w/o items but w/ charms!!!??? :worship:
Geez..., that... that's a lot of charms....

BTW, how did you overcome the base str problem? I am guessing annilus + str charm?

AceToo

10-02-2004, 01:06

dont forget the act 3 quest where you get a potion for +20 life. 3x quest =60 extra life

mrJ

10-02-2004, 01:48

What IS "anti Hammerdin/Necro gear?"

Meaning, is it possible to get 50% magic Damage reduction just like regular damage reduction? Tell me how you can resist a hammerdin's attack or necros so we all may better defend ourselves against those chars.It is not possible to do any such thing, nor is it worth it IMO to sacrifice standard gear for the various items that give small amounts of the reduce magic damage mod. The best resist vs characters with pretty much irresistible damage, is more life. Keeping things like fhr and r/w in mind still, I put on as much gear as I can that will make my life climb so high that it will take that many more spirits/spear to kill me. For hammerdins, pure ones with 15k bh, that life simply allows me to make a single mistake, no room for a second one. :(

Module88

10-02-2004, 02:19

ƒenris

10-02-2004, 06:10

Duel me if I'm such a novice? I was rounding off, I didn't do the math, 3 life per vita, 500x3, I wasn't going for exact amounts, think before you start name calling like a 'novice'.

Module88

10-02-2004, 06:25

An example shows the common misunderstanding of v1.10 novices:

-ƒenris
-Member
-Join Date: Dec 2003
-Posts: 715
- Oh, and 500 vita is only 1500 base life on a hammerdin, after a CTA bo you
-will have about 2400 or so if your CTA is high? Then, a low level oak from
-charges, maybe 3k life? Explain how you're getting 4.4k

The truth is, for a hammerdin, you can achieve 1500 Base Life without spending 500 stat pts in vital.

Then with small charm of vital., it's possible to gain 20 life each. With 20 of these charms, it's possible to gain another 400 life. This can push the life to 2100.

Then with that kind of life, after a lvl 18 BO (or higher) using Call to Arm, it is possible to produce life higher than 3000. I have not calculate the possiblity of 4000 life.

This thread is more for the purpose of starting a discussion. Correct me if my math or my assumption is incorrect. I might have miss other ways to gain vitality.

You seem to both be a bit wrong in this case. Yes, you are right in the fact that that don't really need all that vita to hit that much life at base, but 4.4k is most definitely possible with bo and oak sage. Considering that right now, MrJ (rumors from food, new shifts in gear, the like) has 3k without bo or oak sage, it's HIGHLY probable that he can hit 4.4k with bo and sage. He's likely to hit over. The setup requires a build based on the conservation of every stat point possible, and the best charms. Rumors have it that MrJ has acquired charms that basically match food's in quality. Considering food has 2.6k life with an 09 build (thus much higher str and dex than 1.1 v/t pallys), I can believe Mrj hits 3k. It is possible to hit 4.4k with bo/sage, and its definitely possible to hit around 1500 base life with less than 400 vita.

Module88

10-02-2004, 06:28

I won't speak for the others, but for me personally, I did not sacrifice anything. My v/t has a 75% ctb and maxed res in hell (75% at least) as well as higher max percentages, and stacked resists, when needed.

That's because you lucked out. -.- As for sacrifices?

Lots of runes
Planning time
Brain power

mrJ

10-02-2004, 07:23

Maybe you misunderstood me, or maybe I'm misunderstanding you now, but when I said that, I was replying to tl998.

Umm how easy is it to get the items needed for your 2.4k life? How kind of things do you have to sacrifice?

twn_domn

10-02-2004, 08:17

Duel me if I'm such a novice? I was rounding off, I didn't do the math, 3 life per vita, 500x3, I wasn't going for exact amounts, think before you start name calling like a 'novice'.

Some people are good at mouse-clicking; others are good at using his/her brain, that's all.

ƒenris

10-02-2004, 09:05

Some people are good at mouse-clicking; others are good at using his/her brain, that's all.
I wasn't trying to get the exact answer.

Mr.Glasscock

10-02-2004, 09:11

Jeez, does it really matter that much that a person u probably have never met before points out a small math error? Just let it go... :rolleyes:

ƒenris

10-02-2004, 09:38

It's not a math error though.
500 vita = 1500 life on a pally :rolleyes:
He made an error with life on char lvl anyway, and he calls me a novice.

Ragnarod

10-02-2004, 11:14

--2098 life, 439 vitality without items, but with charms

Uh.., didn't we confirm that w/o item and w/o charm we'll get about 1499 to 1501 life? You have 2098 life w/o items but w/ charms!!!??? :worship:
Geez..., that... that's a lot of charms....

BTW, how did you overcome the base str problem? I am guessing annilus + str charm?
I'm using a +20 stats Annihilus, 8 str/14 dex/20 ias gloves, Shako and an Enigma Mage Plate (notice that 25 base str + 20 + 8 + 2 = 55, the exact amount needed for a Mage Plate)

About my charms, they are quite good, I can list them if you want:

Pala Combats 42, 40, 40, 40, 38, 38, 38, 38, 38, 37 life
Small charms 19/11, 19/11, 20/8, 20/8, 19/11, 20/10, 20/11 lr, 20/11 cr, 19/5 all res, 20/18/10 Annihilus

That equals to 236 life on small charms, 389 life on grand charms, so I would have 1473 base life, including the +60 from quests

twn_domn

10-02-2004, 22:12

You seem to both be a bit wrong in this case. Yes, you are right in the fact that that don't really need all that vita to hit that much life at base, but 4.4k is most definitely possible with bo and oak sage. Considering that right now, MrJ (rumors from food, new shifts in gear, the like) has 3k without bo or oak sage, it's HIGHLY probable that he can hit 4.4k with bo and sage. He's likely to hit over. The setup requires a build based on the conservation of every stat point possible, and the best charms. Rumors have it that MrJ has acquired charms that basically match food's in quality. Considering food has 2.6k life with an 09 build (thus much higher str and dex than 1.1 v/t pallys), I can believe Mrj hits 3k. It is possible to hit 4.4k with bo/sage, and its definitely possible to hit around 1500 base life with less than 400 vita.

The theory of base life is under the following assumption:
1. empty inventory, that means no charm.
2. naked character, that means no equip.

So, the character only gets life from vitality and quest. Quest is what I forget. So, if you follow my assumption, after you have reached 1500 life, you originally should have about 422 vital point. Now that people pointed out quests, the number of vital has changed to 402 points.

Here is a new proposed calcualation:

55 (starting) + 2*90 (character lvl) + 60 (life potion quests) + 3*402(pts into vital) = 1501

Again, I welcome others to point out math error, if any.

Garbad_the_Weak

10-02-2004, 22:28

Just to confirm what other veterans have said, 2500 life without bo/oak was possible even in 09. Several of my old 09 palas (generally mages, vts) had 2500 life with max block/dr (75%), high crushing, blah blah.

Among the reasonable good palas of 09, avg life was probably 1.8-2k, with high end palas ranging from 2.3-2.5. This is of course without sacrificing damage, runwalk, etc. If you go no block or something (smite v smite, for ex) you can get a good bit higher.

I still have been too lazy to make a high end pvp paladin in 1.10, but if I go BM am make a CTA one he will be able to top 4k, just as others here have said.

Garbad

Alexsc25

11-02-2004, 01:02

HvH duels, (mostly my speciality on ladder)
I see no point in over 3k life. Yes, its uber, and i wish i had it,

Hammerdin, good equip ~=~ 15k bh.
Godly life = 4 k with bo?
My hammerdin:
BH = 10 k / 13 k (depends if fully geared for hammer v hammer)
Life = 2.7 with own bo
Free 4*2 space, no life on GC's.
Max resis etc.
80 base str/dex

i feel we are going to insane about this, for i do not die in one hit to their hammers, i die in two. They do not die to one hit, they die to 2 - 3 max.
I like to play my underpowered 09 west lvl 99 non ladder zon once in a while, it makes me know my limits and apply them to my hammerdin.

I see a big point in melee and elemental duels, but so many builds deal such insane damage a single mistake ruins even an insane life paladin.

Basicaly, as far as i see it, we are taking it to the extreme. I know its Uber cool... but like MF, speed vs mf /// price vs improvement

And, i hit 7 k+ life with my wolf barb w/ oak :P too bad doombringer does ****ty dmg

Module88

11-02-2004, 02:27

The theory of base life is under the following assumption:
1. empty inventory, that means no charm.
2. naked character, that means no equip.

That is what base life is. I briefly touched on it and moved on to 2.5k life and above.

I'm using a +20 stats Annihilus, 8 str/14 dex/20 ias gloves, Shako and an Enigma Mage Plate (notice that 25 base str + 20 + 8 + 2 = 55, the exact amount needed for a Mage Plate)

About my charms, they are quite good, I can list them if you want:

Pala Combats 42, 40, 40, 40, 38, 38, 38, 38, 38, 37 life
Small charms 19/11, 19/11, 20/8, 20/8, 19/11, 20/10, 20/11 lr, 20/11 cr, 19/5 all res, 20/18/10 Annihilus

That equals to 236 life on small charms, 389 life on grand charms, so I would have 1473 base life, including the +60 from quests

Good god man! You are a copy of Food and MrJ on West. O_o

It's not a math error though.
500 vita = 1500 life on a pally
He made an error with life on char lvl anyway, and he calls me a novice

Ok, but how many lvls do you need to achieve that much vita? You gain 3 life per lvl. How much extra life did you get from quests? 500 doesn't equal 1500 life. 500 vita=+1500 life on a pally. There is a difference.

Maybe you misunderstood me, or maybe I'm misunderstanding you now, but when I said that, I was replying to tl998.

I think you misunderstood, or I somehow misunderstood him. You can interpret sacrifice as several things, and I was pointing out what you would have to sacrifice gear/runewise. Pally combats with 35+ life and 20 life 11 lr don't come cheap, unless you inherit them. Erh erhm.

mrJ

11-02-2004, 04:47

He (tl998) was talking about compromising things like maximum block and resists for the sake of higher hit points and/or vitality. I said I didn't need to do any such thing, I don't have to "sacrifice" either of those things to sustain hp like that.

(Yes I know I lucked out too. -_- )

Raven-Hood

11-02-2004, 05:45

Module88

11-02-2004, 05:53

55 (starting) + 2*90 (character lvl) + 60 (life potion quests) + 3*402(pts into vital) = 1501

Again, I welcome others to point out math error, if any.--------- Quoted

um for a lvl 90, it would be 2*89, just felt like saying that. yup. uhhh

My cleric breaks 5khp with oak and bo, has 1.3k hp with items and such, why cant the dude with 3k hp break 7+k hp with oak and bo?

Also, why is it that important to have this much hp, I mean if you aren't able to kill a person in the first few seconds, even if you have an extra 600ish hp left, you aren't going to kill the guy.

Raven-Hood

To be technical, it's 92 considering the stat quests. Anyway, are you talking about bo from a barb or from CTA? The way I see it there probably isn't a way you can break 5k with 1.3 modified hp without a very high bo/sage. Perhaps you haven't dueled in temple, but duels there generally last longer than a few seconds, and it can turn around in 2. Back before Obvious went zealot nooblar, we had several great duels. Among them were the one where I was left to a low 250 life, whereas he still had full life. (bad start I guess, don't really know how it happened). At the end of the duel, I ended up with 7 hp, and he was dead. Just because you don't win a few seconds doesn't mean you won't win.

mrJ

11-02-2004, 07:40

Halbreed7250

11-02-2004, 07:56

"screen it"
"i did"
"wow"
"amazing"

tl998

11-02-2004, 08:27

mrJ

11-02-2004, 08:49

"screen it"
"i did"
"wow"
"amazing"Are you making fun of me Jer?

o_O

Edit: You used that stupid mock-word again..go and DIE!

twn_domn

11-02-2004, 21:32

Just for the record, here's what I had with Oak Sage+Barb BO.

http://picserver.student.utwente.nl/view_image.php/904P9UR6ST3/picserver.jpeg

What! 9k+ life? Heh! :worship: so... broken.

wangboBW

12-02-2004, 02:23

Was that druid Oak Sage? or the Wisp ring OS, I am assuming druid OS, but I am not sure.

Module88

12-02-2004, 02:35

Base strength and base dexterity? How are you going to wear your equipment and get max block?? I mean even holy shield can only do so much for your blockrate! Do you guys all have godly gear or something?

If I want to try to make a pally with lots and lots of life (for PVM) and I am poor, what kind of poor-man's equipment do you suggest to break say...5k life after BO and oak sage and still get max block and max resists? I tried to pump as many stat points as I could into my hammerdin, but I still ended up with 97 str and 150 dex. Energy is base of course. So with equipment I get about 1k life. Dunno what I'd get with oak sage and BO tho I'm level 82.

The thing is pallys of his calibre are dependent on enigma for str. No enigma=no gear. Dexterity can be given through items. 150 dex is absolutely excessive. With a HoZ and lvl 20 hs you only need around 145 to hit max block I think (too lazy to input in formula), and if you have 150 base, then you have a problem.

DemonicTutor

12-02-2004, 03:04

After seeing a barb with 12,000 life, nothing suprises me anymore...

He had like lvl 45 BO and he had a party druid cast Oak Sage. I think he was one of them crazy singer barbs?

In fact more could be achieved by a barbarian with Beast Weapon, BO, Werebear, and party druid oak. 15k Maybe?

My old hammerdin had no charms in inventory and he still hit 3.3k with BO. So 4.4k is easy with a lot of 35+ GC's and 9x +20 lifes. Dunno why this is news to anyone or considered a "myth"?

mrJ

12-02-2004, 03:10

Was that druid Oak Sage? or the Wisp ring OS, I am assuming druid OS, but I am not sure.Yes Druid Oak Sage, not HoTO or Wisp Sage. I could've gone really nuts with what I did, planned it out for higher bo and oak, but it was done on a whim. (Drunk with power :drink: )

twn_domn

12-02-2004, 03:17

eviljr.

12-02-2004, 03:36

it really takes 500 points to get that much vital? i have 200 in it right now i have 1k life, with my charms, enigma, vendugos, all he life giving **** i have a total of 4000 life lol

mrJ

12-02-2004, 04:00

A Barb/ singing Barb with lots of Life isn't even news. In fact, you should post about it in the Barb forum.

The paladin in that screenshot, can that character achieve 9k+ life by his own CtA bo and hoto's oak sage? If not, how high can that character go?I don't really know, I don't have a cta, but lets just say I had a perfect +6 bo one, (Is it +6?) prebuffed it with all my stuff, and used a hoto oak sage, I would've gotten approx 8.2k life. (Yes past tense, this pally is dead, *afk bawling*)

zerokid

12-02-2004, 04:57

Don't forget about the three +5 to stats quest, Holy Shield and the three +20 to life quests.

Jackson

12-02-2004, 07:06

Lol, you should also have ran around looking for Armor shrines so that your pally looks even godlier.

DemonicTutor

12-02-2004, 07:41

The paladin in that screenshot, can that character achieve 9k+ life by his own CtA bo and hoto's oak sage? If not, how high can that character go?

Of course not. Thats rediculous, just do the math for urself and you can figure out any characters ammount of life with oak/bo and vita. If you need help, use the chippy dip's skill calculator to see exactly what % bo and oak give at given levels.

Lets say with MrJ's gear "perfect" setup, a 99 pally with 500 (-25 vita because your starting vita is 25) is 475.

475 x 3 = 1,425

Then a level 1 Character starts at 55 life, so add 55 = 1,480.

Then 98 char level gains = +196 life so = 1,676.

Ok now figureing 10x perfect +40 life combats = +400 so = 2,076

Now add 9x +20 life sc's and you got +180 so a total = 2,256

This is the "base" life if you will, that is used to calculate the BO and Oak bonuses. Note that even if useing a shako with +160 life (or whatever it is) since it's +life based on char level, for some reason it does not get factored into BO or Oak auras, so you would add shakos life after your bo/oak and total life is calculated.

Ok lets say with a level 19 BO which is possible (+2 mara, +2 shako, +2 enigma, +1 arachnid, +2 BK/Soj, +1 Anihilus, +1 CTA, +6 BO, +1 battle command, +1 Sigons/Lidless = +19), a level 19 BO = +89% life/mana.

So since BO and Oak don't feed off each other, they only work with your "base" life, +89% of 2,256 life = +2,008 life.

So now your total life is = 4,264

Now if your useing a Heart of the Oak, that is a meak +45% but still decent. Also have to remember that Oak and BO don't inter-calculate so Oak's +% is only working from your base of 2,256, it ignores the BO bonuses.

So +45% of 2,256 = +1,015.

So add that to your Base + BO aura and you have a grand total of = 5,279
If useing shako add +160 or whatever it is since shako doesn't work with oak/bo.

Theres the mathmatical answer to your question rather than "guestimations" of I would've gotten approx 8.2k life

It's quit impossible to have that kinda life on a pally useing your own BO and your own Oak sage. I think where MrJ went wronge is he probebly thought that Oak and BO feed off of each other, if that where the case, then everyone would be makeing druids to abuse high level oak with BO. Then you would see 10k life wind druids, and noone needs to deal with that...

Course my calculations will be off by 100-200 life depending on how many Jah runes one uses. But remember that Jah runes have the same crutch that bo/oak have, it doesn't inter-calculate with your oak/bo auras, it only works off of your "base" life. So jah runes won't add much of anything unfortunatly. Basically any aura/effect that has a +% of ones total life will only work off of your characters "base" life, so don't get confused and start stacking +% auras and effects to get crazy figures like "I would've gotten approx 8.2k life".

Once again, I fail to see why the title of this thread is called "theory" since it's just simple mathmatical facts. If someone argues with you about how much totall life a character can have, don't waste your time. Any idiot can do simple addition and fractions to calculate ones life totall.

Pravda

12-02-2004, 08:18

.

Ok now figureing 10x perfect +40 life combats = +400 so = 2,076

That sum should be 2126, since skill charms can have up to +45 life.

Module88

12-02-2004, 08:24

475 x 3 = 1,425

Then a level 1 Character starts at 55 life, so add 55 = 1,480.

Then 98 char level gains = +196 life so = 1,676.

Ok now figureing 10x perfect +40 life combats = +400 so = 2,076

Now add 9x +20 life sc's and you got +180 so a total = 2,256

This is the "base" life if you will, that is used to calculate the BO and Oak bonuses. Note that even if useing a shako with +160 life (or whatever it is) since it's +life based on char level, for some reason it does not get factored into BO or Oak auras, so you would add shakos life after your bo/oak and total life is calculated.

In all that mess, you understandably forgot the 3 quests that add five stats, and the potion quest adds 60 total. This means 75 more life.

Ok lets say with a level 19 BO which is possible (+2 mara, +2 shako, +2 enigma, +1 arachnid, +2 BK/Soj, +1 Anihilus, +1 CTA, +6 BO, +1 battle command, +1 Sigons/Lidless = +19), a level 19 BO = +89% life/mana./QUOTE]

Doesn't CTA give 2 and possibly 6 bo? Not sure.

[QUOTE]So since BO and Oak don't feed off each other, they only work with your "base" life, +89% of 2,256 life = +2,008 life.

So now your total life is = 4,264

So what happened to the enigma (+5% life) and the life from verdungos, possibly the shield, the bk rings, gloves, etc etc? As I understand it, food tells me he hits 3k, and he probably does, if that hasn't been proven already. So, 90% (1 extra on CTA) of 3000 is 2700. 5700+(3000*HOO life bonus)=Total life.

Once again, I fail to see why the title of this thread is called "theory" since it's just simple mathmatical facts. If someone argues with you about how much totall life a character can have, don't waste your time. Any idiot can do simple addition and fractions to calculate ones life totall.

Yet you seem to be a few thousand points off.

twn_domn

12-02-2004, 08:24

The "idiot" u refer to, like to duel others and fail at simple addition and fractions.

Your attempt is pretty decent despite the fact that you missed the 3 life quests (60 life). I get a better idea now, your calculation is not that far off. It's called theory because we still cannot nail down the exact number, too many assumptions and hypothetical figures right now.

It will not be a theory when, some day, some1 takes a screen shot and shows us the exact setup.

mrJ

12-02-2004, 08:28

I suppose the excuse I would use is...I did not really know that. I should've noticed it though I guess. Anyways, after reworking it I found that I would actually have a "measly" 7139 max by myself.

DemonicTutor

12-02-2004, 08:30

That sum should be 2126, since skill charms can have up to +45 life.

Oh common, I was already pushing it by suggesting that anyone would even own 10x +40 lifers, what are the chances that anyone even has one +45 lifer? Let alone 10 of em? 10 45 lifers don't even exist on bnet unless the dupers get ahold of one, in which case everyone will have them.

Even so an extra 50 life is 50 + (45%) Oak + (89%) BO = +122 life

As it is that setup I described is quite impossible to achieve, I don't know anyone with 10x 40 lifer combats, unless they recently fell victum to the last dupe?

Anyways all this talk about perfect vitality is makeing me sick. My late hammerin only had 3.3k and he did just fine for dueling purposes, mass life isn't always the answer. If someoneyou feels they need 5k+ life to have a decent dueler, maybe they need to get some more experience under there belt...

DemonicTutor

12-02-2004, 08:44

In all that mess, you understandably forgot the 3 quests that add five stats, and the potion quest adds 60 total. This means 75 more life.

Nope, I was working with MrJ's "screenshot". His supposed primo build had a perfect 500 vita at lvl 99. So unless you can make a better pally that maintains 75% and has more than 500 vita at lvl 99, then 500 vita is what we can work with here. I admit I forgot the +60 life potions, that one totally slipped my mind. But still just do the math, add 60 + oak + bo = 137 to the total final calculated life.

Doesn't CTA give 2 and possibly 6 bo? Not sure.

Man, can you read?
Look:
Maras +2
Enigma +2
Shako +2
Spider mesh +1
soj/bk +2
Anihilus +1
Sigons/lidless +1
Battle Command +1
CTA +1
BO (FROM CTA) +6
-------------
Level 19 BO = 89%

Not that hard guys, stick with me, I know this is difficult. :rolleyes:

So what happened to the enigma (+5% life) and the life from verdungos, possibly the shield, the bk rings, gloves, etc etc? As I understand it, food tells me he hits 3k, and he probably does, if that hasn't been proven already. So, 90% (1 extra on CTA) of 3000 is 2700. 5700+(3000*HOO life bonus)=Total life.

As stated earlier, enigmas +5% is added only to your "base" life, it does not add to oak/bo. Where you get 90% from BO is beyond me, 19 is the best BO you can recive unless your a barbarian, whats with the 1 extra on CTA? Did you not read I already counted that?

Also where do you get a +3,000 Hoto bonuse? Learn to read and do simple math, Oaks aura works from your "base" life, not your Base life + your BO aura... Assumeing Food's pally has a base of 3k (which is possible assumeing an item like 1.08 gerkes sanctuary is used), hoto would only boost 45% of that 3k life not 45% of 3k + 2.7k.

Yet you seem to be a few thousand points off.
Your IQ seems to be a few points off... Get it through your head, Oak and BO don't work off each other. They only add a percentage based off your BASE LIFE. Same as Jah runes.

Wuhan_Clan

12-02-2004, 08:47

DemonicTutor

12-02-2004, 08:51

Anyways, after reworking it I found that I would actually have a "measly" 7139 max by myself.

Are you still talking about the pally from the screenshot or a different pally all together? Because working with the 500 vita setup, I don't see you breaking 5.5k

What kinda vita numbers are you playing with to get that?

DemonicTutor

12-02-2004, 08:55

BTW, throw in annihilus into the pile of theoretical item settups. I guess since it was +vitality so it got ignored in the calculations.

Actually I didn't count things like anihlus or verdungo because I figured those items where already added into MrJ's build since his screenshot displayed 500 vitality. Unless his pally for some reason chose not to equip anihilus or any other +vita items he had before he took the screenshot, i Figured the 500 was his maximum total with items and all.

Course we are working with a pally here that maintains 75% block. It's possible to get higher than 500 vita at level 99, but at the cost of poor block and or DR ect...

mrJ

12-02-2004, 08:55

Allow me to clarify, I'am not Food, Food is someone else, I'am mrJ

I do not use an 08 Gerke's, I do not use Jah runes, I did not put all stat points into vitality, if I did I would've had a base vita of 530, my v/t has 478 base vita, and when he was fully geared for the most life possible with the gear I had, he had 3051 life before any non pally skill modifiers.

Pravda

12-02-2004, 08:58

twn_domn

12-02-2004, 08:59

DemonicTutor

12-02-2004, 09:08

3051 life before any non pally skill modifiers.

Ok, so this is before Oak/BO. But +life based on level items don't get factored into Oak/BO, so you would have to subtract 170 (shako) and 120 (2 BK Rings) from that total of 3,051 before you start to calculate the bo/oak.

So 3,051 - 170 - 120 = 2,761 This is what your oak/bo auras will work with.

You can readd the Shako and BK ring life boosts after you add your oak/bo auras, thats how the game calculates the life.

So lvl 19 bo off 2,761 = 2,457
And Oak Sage charge is 45% of 2,761 (notice oak isnt adding BO aura as well) = 1,243

So add:
Base = 2,761
BO = 2,457
Oak = 1,243
Shako/BK rings = 290
------------
6,751

I think you probebly added in Shako and BK rings to your oak/bo auras which is why you broke 7k. Still a very nice ammount of life comming from your own character and not relying on a barb/druid in the party.

But how exactly did you get your pally up to 3k base? You gotta have some pimped out charms.

DemonicTutor

12-02-2004, 09:18

DemonicTutor,
Again, I am impressed with your attempt. Yes, we need to recalculate w/ the 60 pts in the potion quest and 20 more from annilus. Also, if this thread is making you sick, as you put it, you can always take the pleasure of "not" reading this thread. None of us is "forcing" you to read this discussion. Also, that comment about IQ is really unnecessary. Just numbers, relax.

Yea it makes me sick that people put such an emphesis on there characters life when in a dueling situation, a good ammount of strategy and or skill will go a long way. And I tend to shy away from threads like this (heck they had one running in the druid forum about a "perfect" wind druid setup with nearly 7k life), but when I see that a vast majority of the participators don't know how the game calculates life, then I feel I should step in to help out. My bad if I came off as offensive, but if you knew me IRL, im a saint on these forums.

Another reasoning for this thread is to brainstorm a new kind of paladin, a new build. It might or might not end up to be a new version of hammerdin. Currrently, most hammerdins pump the obvious pts and stall w/ bunch of skill pts and stat pts un-used after about level 80 or so with no direction where to go after. Hence, we have this discussion.

A new kind of paladin or a new kind of item setup? I think hammerdins are pretty straight forward as it is. I know once I finished the synergies on mine, I just dumped into prayer for a potion like meditation in pubbys. I guess defiance is equally good, but charge is definatly not worth pumping. Can't get the ar up enough, and your weapon would deal less then desirable damage without 3/20/20 charms.

mrJ

12-02-2004, 09:27

Blast, foiled again. >_<

Yes the charms are very nice, albeit the grand charms are not as good as some people's that have been mentioned, Pravda's, Rag's, Food's. (I had nothing above a +40, and "only" three of them.) I won't go on and on with my exact gear/stats but my v/t had:

-level 99
-base strength
-7x dex
-478 vita
-nice charms
-+life from every single piece of gear

DemonicTutor

12-02-2004, 09:37

I guess my only question now would be, why on earth don't you still have that pally?

If I could manage a 3k base pally, I think I would keep him around for a long long time :)

mrJ

12-02-2004, 10:12

I guess my only question now would be, why on earth don't you still have that pally?

If I could manage a 3k base pally, I think I would keep him around for a long long time :)I have him alright, alas, the majority of his gear his gone. I made him in 1.09, leeched through cows all the way to 99, and saved him, unsure of what to do with him. He easily could've been my best pally ever, but given the somewhat mediocre gear I was known for, I thought I would simply become the easiest level 99 v/t to kill ever known. A friend of mine with a fairly "gosu" v/t decided to quit, and gave me his accounts, meaning his v/t gear as well of course. I made my 99 based on most of his stuff (My Enigma ahem), but when an old friend of his came back, a reforming of his old clan happened, and when I got the feeling he wanted to come back, I handed all his stuff/accounts back. So ends my adventure with my 3k v/t.

Halbreed7250

12-02-2004, 11:02

Well as the saying goes MRJ, "It is better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all.". I fell in love with that paladin as well, and I would just like to take a moment here to bow my head and express my grief...

...

...

... may he rest in peace and all his holiness and goodwill carry him to wherever it is Paladins of the light go.

Ragnarod

12-02-2004, 11:46

That's a shame mrJ, I hope at least it was fun while it lasted :(

If it's not much of a pain, I'd like to know the items you used, I'm thinking about d2c boots/gloves/amulet right? Just out of curiosity, because when I planned my v/t, my initial calculations were of about 2.7-2.8k life at lvl 90, and I'm not sure it would reach 3k life at lvl 99

mrJ

12-02-2004, 15:30

Thanks very much for your "condolences" guys. :lol: Yes, he was fun, he was "the beast" to my friends, took a lickin', kept on ticking.

Sure Rag, bear with me for not knowing the stats of everything exactly but this is what it took to reach as high as I could.

helm: Shako, Ber/Lo
ammy: Rose.B of the Whale (+3 combat, +92 life)
rings: kathos/kathos
gloves: blood fists
boots: waterwalks (+15 dex, +62 life)
belt: verdungo's (15% dr, +39 vita)
armor: enigma mage plate
shield: HoZ (ber)
weapon: Rose.B flail of the mammoth (+3 combat, +34 life, +35% IAS, +2x% light res)

The charms were like
combats: 40, 40, 40, 39, 39, 39, 39, 38, 38, 36 (?)
small charms: 20/11, 19/10, 17/8, etc (I can barely remember, I didn't own them long enough to memorize t.t )
anny: 13 stat/16 res/+7% exp

As I said before, this setup was used against necros mainly I suppose, just trying to maximize my hp, and using the flail's range, for ranged attackers. Also, as you see, I don't hit a sufficient FHR bp for fighting smiters, and while this wasn't my usual setup for them, I could've opted for my (was mine) +12% fhr combat, took out the +36 gc, hit the 48% bp, and still had 3015 life. Or I could've bought a pair of Ss.Treks and had 3047 life, and still decent fhr. Anyways, on and on it goes with all the setups I had, for my more serious pal vs pal dueling, using a real smiter shield (More max dmg anyway), my life was 2927-2991. (I'm a very precise tweaker :P ) If I'd had a better stat anny, I would have never been under 3000... :rant:

Module88

13-02-2004, 02:28

Oh common, I was already pushing it by suggesting that anyone would even own 10x +40 lifers, what are the chances that anyone even has one +45 lifer? Let alone 10 of em? 10 45 lifers don't even exist on bnet unless the dupers get ahold of one, in which case everyone will have them.

Even so an extra 50 life is 50 + (45%) Oak + (89%) BO = +122 life

As it is that setup I described is quite impossible to achieve, I don't know anyone with 10x 40 lifer combats, unless they recently fell victum to the last dupe?

Anyways all this talk about perfect vitality is makeing me sick. My late hammerin only had 3.3k and he did just fine for dueling purposes, mass life isn't always the answer. If someoneyou feels they need 5k+ life to have a decent dueler, maybe they need to get some more experience under there belt...

Chances? Two pallys, food has them, not ten, but some are 41/42, so it balances out I guess, and MRJ had them before he returned them. Maybe I missed it, but who said you need to have 5k+ life to be a decent dueler?

Nope, I was working with MrJ's "screenshot". His supposed primo build had a perfect 500 vita at lvl 99. So unless you can make a better pally that maintains 75% and has more than 500 vita at lvl 99, then 500 vita is what we can work with here. I admit I forgot the +60 life potions, that one totally slipped my mind. But still just do the math, add 60 + oak + bo = 137 to the total final calculated life.

Well, he didn't quite say if he had the verdungos, and as I recall, food said he didn't have one. However, it is possible to get a 40 vita verdungos, really.

Doesn't CTA give 2 and possibly 6 bo? Not sure.

Man, can you read?
Look:
Maras +2
Enigma +2
Shako +2
Spider mesh +1
soj/bk +2
Anihilus +1
Sigons/lidless +1
Battle Command +1
CTA +1
BO (FROM CTA) +6
-------------
Level 19 BO = 89%

Not that hard guys, stick with me, I know this is difficult.

Not sure if I can read? I'm sure you read the fact that CTA has 2, 2, 2, yes 2 to skills, and up to 3 bo, right? Why is it you still have one there? Can you read? Not sure. Correct me if I'm wrong, but CTA itself is two skills, and has a max of 3 BO.

As stated earlier, enigmas +5% is added only to your "base" life, it does not add to oak/bo. Where you get 90% from BO is beyond me, 19 is the best BO you can recive unless your a barbarian, whats with the 1 extra on CTA? Did you not read I already counted that?

If I didn't say it before, Jah adds to modified life. Tested already. And I did make an error, its not 6 BO, it's 3. Because you made an error as well (and still haven't admitted that cta gives 2 instead of one), you actually get a little less than that.

Also where do you get a +3,000 Hoto bonuse? Learn to read and do simple math, Oaks aura works from your "base" life, not your Base life + your BO aura... Assumeing Food's pally has a base of 3k (which is possible assumeing an item like 1.08 gerkes sanctuary is used), hoto would only boost 45% of that 3k life not 45% of 3k + 2.7k.

I'm sure you READ (because I can't) it's 3000* the bonus (which is a percentage), is a certain amount of life. 3000*.45 or so is how much life? You do the math, since I can't read or can't do simple math according to you. And BO and Jah runes for SURE do not go off base life, otherwise, I wouldn't go from 1900 modified life to 2700 life after CTA bo.

Your IQ seems to be a few points off... Get it through your head, Oak and BO don't work off each other. They only add a percentage based off your BASE LIFE. Same as Jah runes.

My IQ is off? You say I can't read, yet it was you who did not read. You say my 3k life from hoto was off, yet you failed to read what was after it. You failed to note that it was "5700+(3000*HOO life bonus)=Total life."

So thus, you add the 5700 (which is a little lower because of the CTA mistake)+ the 3000 original life (which Bo and Jah for sure go off modified life) multiplied by the percentage.

ƒenris

13-02-2004, 02:38

Your IQ seems to be a few points off...
Only because your sister sucked out 50 points of it last night.

(kk sorry had to get that out of my system)

Module88

13-02-2004, 02:40

Only because your sister sucked out 50 points of it last night.

(kk sorry had to get that out of my system)

You know, those mines (avatar) are extremely dangerous. -.-

Module88

13-02-2004, 04:12

BLEH! Never checked the updated version of CTA. It has 6 Bo possible and 1 skills now. MM. Sorry about that, guess it just means more life for us. :)

Mr.Glasscock

13-02-2004, 04:29

wow..this turned from the story of mr.J's humble short-lived paladin into a math competition. Not that it was any competition, just addin subtracting and fractions... But hah, i jus wanted to point out that demonic tutor and module are like twins. It was like a parrot pokin at its own image in a mirror. haha. no offense :D

It's like your life depended on you getting the stats right, the numbers right, the possibility of the chance of the average number of 40-45 combats (yea, as stupid as that sounds.) Lay off, its a freaking game; life in this isnt everything, and i dont see how miscounting the numbers above a red sphere in a game means you have a lower IQ.

To most the people here, all that gibberish meant nothing. I just skipped down to marcus' posts cus his are what matter: an estimation. No one really here cares of 102 life or watever it was. :grrr:

But anyways, continue w/ the show you 2, nothing like 2 ppl going at it for 2 pages. :cool:

mrJ

13-02-2004, 04:32

DemonicTutor

13-02-2004, 05:51

Chances? Two pallys, food has them, not ten, but some are 41/42, so it balances out I guess, and MRJ had them before he returned them. Maybe I missed it, but who said you need to have 5k+ life to be a decent dueler?

You just reinforced my point, getting 10x 45 lifers is impossible. When someone is designing a build/item setup for a character, they should use items that are obtainable, otherwise you can undershoot your figures by alot.

And I never said you need 5k life or any ammount of life to be a good dueler. In fact if you scroll through this mess you'll find somewhere that I said that this discussion is pointless since the power of ones character isn't based on life but on the person controlling him.

Well, he didn't quite say if he had the verdungos, and as I recall, food said he didn't have one. However, it is possible to get a 40 vita verdungos, really.

Well then your loseing +1 skills off arachnid, and 20fcr which can be harmfull to a V/T (fast teleports are crutial when useing foh/convict). The 1 skill loss will effect the BO calcualtion as well, but the +40 vita is way more life than a few %'s off BO.

Not sure if I can read? I'm sure you read the fact that CTA has 2, 2, 2, yes 2 to skills, and up to 3 bo, right? Why is it you still have one there? Can you read? Not sure. Correct me if I'm wrong, but CTA itself is two skills, and has a max of 3 BO.

CTA is +1 to all skills, and +1-6 BO, don't forget the Battle Command which adds another point as well. So in totall a possible of +8 BO.

If I didn't say it before, Jah adds to modified life. Tested already. And I did make an error, its not 6 BO, it's 3. Because you made an error as well (and still haven't admitted that cta gives 2 instead of one), you actually get a little less than that.

The way life modifiers (IE: effects that give + life based on a % of your life) work is they calculate your "base life" and only your "base life". They do not feed off of each other, this includes Jah's, Oak Sage, Battle Orders, Lycanthropy, Wearbear/Wearwolf, ect...

So lets say you got a base life of 2k. And you have 1 Jah in enigma and 1 Jah in shako or something. Well those jahs work from the 2k. So each jah adds 100 life. The game will not calculate one jah, then calculate the next jah after adding the effects of the first. This is not how it works, all the life modifiers work off that plain base of 2k. They don't stack up adding the different life modifier effects. They are each calculated individually, and separate of each others effects.

I'm sure you READ (because I can't) it's 3000* the bonus (which is a percentage), is a certain amount of life. 3000*.45 or so is how much life? You do the math, since I can't read or can't do simple math according to you. And BO and Jah runes for SURE do not go off base life, otherwise, I wouldn't go from 1900 modified life to 2700 life after CTA bo.

1.9k to 2.7k is perfectly normal from a BO. But you need to understand that life modifiers do not feed off each other. It seems to me like now your simply argueing for the sake of argueing. Your not even doing the calc's right, and your makeing claims like jah runes work with BO's aura. I'm through educateing you, you can either belive me or defy the laws of the games coded math logarithms.

My IQ is off? You say I can't read, yet it was you who did not read. You say my 3k life from hoto was off, yet you failed to read what was after it. You failed to note that it was "5700+(3000*HOO life bonus)=Total life."

First of all it's hard to read your typeing when you spell hoto a a HOO. What the balls is a HOO? Also you wouldnt multiple your life by the HoTo bonuse, you would add it. So use a + sigh instead of a *. And lastly, HoTo's Oak is 45%, not 55%. You keep thinking that BO/Oak/Jah all bonuse off each other, this is where your makeing mistake.

Everyone else gets how it works, why must you disagree with whats been proven by anyone with a oak/bo aura?

Mr.Glasscock

13-02-2004, 05:55

hahah, its like a train wreck. You cant help but watch as it goes by :)

LovelyGods

13-02-2004, 06:03

Jeeze manny this thread is confusing lol

as soon as i buy a new diablo 2 LoD / Classic Disks i'll be on more again.

if you didn't know my comp doens't agree with my current disks. Too old for my comp lol...'

anyways.

you would ge tmore life if you used 3/xx/xx sc's or 20/resisst sc. but less damage i suppose.

But i use those 3 xx xx sc and i have around 2559 life. 493 vita with all gear.

1.9k naked or so i think. maybe more. havn'et had a chance to check.

i'll be on soon i hope.

eviljr.

13-02-2004, 09:47

what is the average life for a pali? 2k?

LovelyGods

13-02-2004, 19:05

Below Average is : To 1000-1500 this is where most new pala are in. By new i don't necessaraly mean a noob. maybe this is their first pala?

Average is: 1500 - 2000 this is where most of your zealots are.

Above Average is :2000-2500+ this is the mage/liberators/hammerdins/ vt

this is of course with no Battle Orders and No Oak Sage.

The highest life i've seen on a pala with no Bo / Oak sage and still do very good in pvp is around 2.9k . i think that if you go over 3k you would be sacrificing some equip and charms that may be needed.

Lanjudo

14-02-2004, 19:26

my pala had 2400 in 1.09 ;P zealot not lanjudo but my other he was all made of low req only prob i was afraid i would pop lol...

SimplyGarces

14-02-2004, 20:46

My pali lvl 87 has 1442 base life so yess it is very possible to have 1500 base life and thats 1442 without charms or nething i have 400+ vite.

Hellian

17-02-2004, 22:52

I know my smiter back in .09 had 2400 with all equipment on... had 10 +1 combat +40 or life GC's and 10 20 life 11% lit resisst small charms. Got all stats from rare boots gloves rings and amulet. had 74% dr used hoz and some magic +3 combat +2 fant +1 holy shield sceptor, shako gave good plus life too. I dont actually remember this exactly but thats the just of the setup. he blocked 72% also. i seam to remember him getting near 4500 life with BO. too bad he got deleted cause i didnt play for too long. usually he ran around with 2100 life. with max life gear on he reached 2400 though. although i dont think he blocked as well for some reason

Module88

18-02-2004, 07:34

You just reinforced my point, getting 10x 45 lifers is impossible. When someone is designing a build/item setup for a character, they should use items that are obtainable, otherwise you can undershoot your figures by alot.

I believe this is what I was referring to.

"Oh common, I was already pushing it by suggesting that anyone would even own 10x +40 lifers"

And I never said you need 5k life or any ammount of life to be a good dueler. In fact if you scroll through this mess you'll find somewhere that I said that this discussion is pointless since the power of ones character isn't based on life but on the person controlling him.

Because I'm too lazy to scroll through this crap, I'm going to say I either misinterpreted or you misread.

Well then your loseing +1 skills off arachnid, and 20fcr which can be harmfull to a V/T (fast teleports are crutial when useing foh/convict). The 1 skill loss will effect the BO calcualtion as well, but the +40 vita is way more life than a few %'s off BO.

So let's say you kept the arachnid. You now probably have 50% fcr. Since the breakpoint is 75, where is the other 5% coming from? Last statement is true.

So lets say you got a base life of 2k. And you have 1 Jah in enigma and 1 Jah in shako or something. Well those jahs work from the 2k. So each jah adds 100 life. The game will not calculate one jah, then calculate the next jah after adding the effects of the first. This is not how it works, all the life modifiers work off that plain base of 2k. They don't stack up adding the different life modifier effects. They are each calculated individually, and separate of each others effects.

I don't think that 2k life is even possible (for base life). I don't know, I didn't do the math (partly out of laziness), but if you had 2k life, you probably wouldn't have even close to max block.

1.9k to 2.7k is perfectly normal from a BO. But you need to understand that life modifiers do not feed off each other. It seems to me like now your simply argueing for the sake of argueing. Your not even doing the calc's right, and your makeing claims like jah runes work with BO's aura. I'm through educateing you, you can either belive me or defy the laws of the games coded math logarithms.

With my messed up pally, it really doesn't explain how I go from 1200 base life (at most) to 2700 after CTA BO.

First of all it's hard to read your typeing when you spell hoto a a HOO. What the balls is a HOO? Also you wouldnt multiple your life by the HoTo bonuse, you would add it. So use a + sigh instead of a *. And lastly, HoTo's Oak is 45%, not 55%. You keep thinking that BO/Oak/Jah all bonuse off each other, this is where your makeing mistake.

Hard to read? I think you read it just right. If you are going to point out a typo, I'd recommend checking your typing. If you are saying I can't do math, you have a problem here, because you aren't making any sense. .45 is equivalent to 45%. 3000*.45 is indeed adding 45% of the 3000 life (though it may not be the case of 3000). In this case, it's not the mathematics that is off, just the variable in the formula. You can't just say 3000+.45 because that would mean 3000.45. So here, your mathematics is off, and uh, mind pointing out where I said the HotO bonus was 55%?

Everyone else gets how it works, why must you disagree with whats been proven by anyone with a oak/bo aura?

In case you missed it, I've tried it with CTA bo. 1900 modified life to 2700 modified life. Now either that's a freakishly high BO, or it's going off something besides base life, because mine is probably about 1200. Probably less.

FoodPoisoning

19-02-2004, 10:07

I do have a verdungos Mr. sexy :wink2: its 39 vita
I'm excited that I'm included in this most thrilling conversation, but I wish could read through it all without killing myself... could anyone summarize it for me?

coldarmy13

19-02-2004, 10:15

my hammerdin has 430 vita at lvl 90 with 15 saved stat points. he has over 3k life with bo. idunno his base life. i could take a looksee in a bit.

DemonicTutor

19-02-2004, 16:38

Because I'm too lazy to scroll through this crap, I'm going to say I either misinterpreted or you misread.

If your not willing to read things though, then why bother responding.

So let's say you kept the arachnid. You now probably have 50% fcr. Since the breakpoint is 75, where is the other 5% coming from?

Once again, this thread was more or less spawned off a screen shot taken of mrJ's pally whom was useing HoTo at the time. So where you get 50% fcr is beyond me. Last I checked hoto is 40, spider is 20, and magefists are 20. That beats the 75% frame. If your designing your V/T without keeping fcr in mind, your kinda hindering your usefullness as a FoH'er. Teleport is a must, and 11+ frame teleports will get you in trouble. If you wanna use 2 different item setups then thats a whole different story all together and please specify that so your post holds some validity. I dunno why you wouldn't want to hit the 75% frame when useing foh/teleport, maybe you could explain that to me.

I don't think that 2k life is even possible (for base life). I don't know, I didn't do the math (partly out of laziness), but if you had 2k life, you probably wouldn't have even close to max block.

Theres your problem yet again, your makeing generalisations without getting any facts or listening to reason. Do you tell your math teacher, oh I don't think 2+2=4, I don't know, I didn't do the math (partly out of laziness), but it just doesn't sound right to me. This seems to be your attitude throughout this entire thread and just further proves the lack of bearing your accusations hold. You don't "think" 2k life is even possible, yet foodpoisoning had a pally with 3k base (dunno if he still does), and mrJ's pally also had 3k or damn near close. Heck I even made a hammerdin with 2.1k and he didn't even have any life charms, and yes he had 75% block.

With my messed up pally, it really doesn't explain how I go from 1200 base life (at most) to 2700 after CTA BO.

Now your contradicting yourself since before you stated you had 1.9 base with 2.7 after bo, now that number magically changed to 1.2k?

In case you missed it, I've tried it with CTA bo. 1900 modified life to 2700 modified life. Now either that's a freakishly high BO, or it's going off something besides base life, because mine is probably about 1200. Probably less.

Again with the "probably", your creating no foundation for your so called "facts". Your giveing us nothing to go by here. And by the by, going from 1.9k to 2.7k after BO is a very normal BO. Thats a 70% Increase which is perfectly fine, and approximatly a level 12-13 Battle Order.

Here's an idea, give a list of your gear and your charms, as well as your vitality and character level and I can explain to you how your life is added up and maybe you'll get a better understanding of how the game calculates your life.

I have a feeling you think that "base life" pertains to the hit points on your character while he's naked. That's not what I meant by base life at all. I use the term to describe the life points used to go into the modifier calculations. My term of "base life" is basically your life points minus the effects of Jah, Oak Sage, Battle Orders, Wearbear/wolf, Lycanthropy, Shako, Bul Kathos rings, and any other item that gives +life based on char level.

Pravda

19-02-2004, 19:02

Well then your loseing +1 skills off arachnid, and 20fcr which can be harmfull to a V/T (fast teleports are crutial when useing foh/convict).

If your designing your V/T without keeping fcr in mind, your kinda hindering your usefullness as a FoH'er. Teleport is a must, and 11+ frame teleports will get you in trouble. If you wanna use 2 different item setups then thats a whole different story all together and please specify that so your post holds some validity. I dunno why you wouldn't want to hit the 75% frame when useing foh/teleport, maybe you could explain that to me.

What I fail to see is why teleport is a must for a v/t? Why don't you try to duel for real instead of using cheap tactics?

twn_domn

19-02-2004, 19:32

What I fail to see is why teleport is a must for a v/t? Why don't you try to duel for real instead of using cheap tactics?

What do you mean? Please define "cheap tactics" and "duel for real" before you ask another "loaded" question next time. Don't tell me the only duel you have ever try is zealot vs zealot.

jjashik

19-02-2004, 19:58

my smiter has 2500+ life with no bo or oak sage or ne thing like that

Pravda

19-02-2004, 20:25

What do you mean? Please define "cheap tactics" and "duel for real" before you ask another "loaded" question next time. Don't tell me the only duel you have ever try is zealot vs zealot.

Since the quotes I commented in my post was about using teleport it should be pretty clear what I'm refering to. Isn't zealot vs. zealot what pal vs. pal is all about (*sarcasm)?

DemonicTutor

20-02-2004, 01:32

What I fail to see is why teleport is a must for a v/t? Why don't you try to duel for real instead of using cheap tactics?

Duel for real? Take this post to the clan-honor forum where it belongs, because last I checked the character forums are not a police state in which anyone has to abide by rules you create for yourself.

If you feel like you don't wanna use CTA or Enigma, then thats your personal problem not mine. I'm sorry your upset that your v/t loses to enigma users but you can either compensate or go crying to clan-honor about it, otherwise your flames fall on deaf ears.

Useless post of the day winner :clap:

Module88

20-02-2004, 02:08

Once again, this thread was more or less spawned off a screen shot taken of mrJ's pally whom was useing HoTo at the time. So where you get 50% fcr is beyond me. Last I checked hoto is 40, spider is 20, and magefists are 20. That beats the 75% frame. If your designing your V/T without keeping fcr in mind, your kinda hindering your usefullness as a FoH'er. Teleport is a must, and 11+ frame teleports will get you in trouble. If you wanna use 2 different item setups then thats a whole different story all together and please specify that so your post holds some validity. I dunno why you wouldn't want to hit the 75% frame when useing foh/teleport, maybe you could explain that to me.

So why use arachnid again? Teleport is a must? How so?

Theres your problem yet again, your makeing generalisations without getting any facts or listening to reason. Do you tell your math teacher, oh I don't think 2+2=4, I don't know, I didn't do the math (partly out of laziness), but it just doesn't sound right to me. This seems to be your attitude throughout this entire thread and just further proves the lack of bearing your accusations hold. You don't "think" 2k life is even possible, yet foodpoisoning had a pally with 3k base (dunno if he still does), and mrJ's pally also had 3k or damn near close. Heck I even made a hammerdin with 2.1k and he didn't even have any life charms, and yes he had 75% block.

What you need to do is stop telling people they can't read. Here's why. I believe this is what I said. (I bolded the important stuff so you wouldn't miss it)

"I don't think that 2k life is even possible (for base life)."

And don't bother telling me food or j, or any pally has ever had 3k base life. Food's pally currently has something around 2500, MrJ's HAD 3k. 3k with charms, shako, the gear. Base life is white life, no gear or nothing. Not possible for sure. Don't bother telling me that your pally has 2.1k base life when you don't even know what base life is.

Now your contradicting yourself since before you stated you had 1.9 base with 2.7 after bo, now that number magically changed to 1.2k?

"I wouldn't go from 1900 modified life to 2700 life after CTA bo."

Am I really contradicting myself? Here's another reason why you shouldn't say other people can't read. I bolded it again for clearness.

Here's an idea, give a list of your gear and your charms, as well as your vitality and character level and I can explain to you how your life is added up and maybe you'll get a better understanding of how the game calculates your life.

Bo and Jah go off base life now (didn't on 09). But your equation (which I didn't respond to) doesn't work out to be right, since the 1900 is wrong. See above if you dont' understand.

I have a feeling you think that "base life" pertains to the hit points on your character while he's naked. That's not what I meant by base life at all. I use the term to describe the life points used to go into the modifier calculations. My term of "base life" is basically your life points minus the effects of Jah, Oak Sage, Battle Orders, Wearbear/wolf, Lycanthropy, Shako, Bul Kathos rings, and any other item that gives +life based on char level.

And that's what base life is. What is base str? Str with gear or str without? Without of course. And if you use the term base life to describe life that goes to modifier calculations, that would be indeed life without gear.

FoodPoisoning

20-02-2004, 02:26

Hah, "Teleport is a must"
what an idiot

I have not yet been beaten by any paladin in 1.10 with teleport, and I don't use teleport myself. It's for weak nurbs? Same with BO, Oak, Doom ETC?

Halbreed7250

20-02-2004, 02:30

ah hah! drew, remember the very very first time i ever dueled you? in that pubby, i surprised you with telport, yes 1.10 and beat you. the sad part is that you beat me 900000:0 after that, but anyways, just letting you know that the only paladin that has ever beaten you with teleport is me senor!!

:)

Pravda

20-02-2004, 03:11

Duel for real? Take this post to the clan-honor forum where it belongs, because last I checked the character forums are not a police state in which anyone has to abide by rules you create for yourself.

If you feel like you don't wanna use CTA or Enigma, then thats your personal problem not mine. I'm sorry your upset that your v/t loses to enigma users but you can either compensate or go crying to clan-honor about it, otherwise your flames fall on deaf ears.

Useless post of the day winner :clap:

Maybe ppl would take your posts more seriously if you didn't act like the stereotypical pubby dueler. I haven't created any rules, but you can ask ppl around here whether they consider teleport cheap or not. I think you received a couple of replies already. So, why is teleport a must for a v/t? What makes it so hard to actually win the vast majority of all pubby duels with a well-designed v/t without using teleport? You must have a serious handicap....-_-

ƒenris

20-02-2004, 03:23

Hah, "Teleport is a must"
what an idiot

I have not yet been beaten by any paladin in 1.10 with teleport, and I don't use teleport myself. It's for weak nurbs? Same with BO, Oak, Doom ETC?
Sorry if we don't all fit into your perfect little world buddy.
Teleport is a must in pubbies.
If you're on west ladder feel free to /w *blacktastic and have your godly v/t beaten down, no tele ;)

FoodPoisoning

20-02-2004, 03:50

heh, I don't play much anymore I'm allowed to talk ****.

I still kill everyone in pubbies and I don't tele. Maybe tele is essential in pubbies for people who are WEAK!?

FoodPoisoning

20-02-2004, 04:01

If you're on west ladder feel free to /w *blacktastic and have your godly v/t beaten down, no tele ;)

I'd love to see you try, perhaps when ladder ends.

DemonicTutor

20-02-2004, 05:20

So why use arachnid again? Teleport is a must? How so?

You do want to stand a chance vs necros do you not? Enigma necro with mass bonewalls, teleport is rather important. And since I always refer to pubby dueling, I'd like to see any non-teleporting V/T pally beat a enigma necro. It hasn't happened yet, and I doubt it will. Perhaps gimme your account name and I can setup some nec vs v/t duels. And these aint your typical noob necs here either.

What you need to do is stop telling people they can't read. Here's why. I believe this is what I said. (I bolded the important stuff so you wouldn't miss it)"I don't think that 2k life is even possible (for base life)."

And don't bother telling me food or j, or any pally has ever had 3k base life. Food's pally currently has something around 2500, MrJ's HAD 3k. 3k with charms, shako, the gear. Base life is white life, no gear or nothing. Not possible for sure. Don't bother telling me that your pally has 2.1k base life when you don't even know what base life is.

See, this is where I had a feeling some wires got crossed. When I used the term "base life", it's used to described the number of life that is calculated into all the modifiers (and I explained this in just about every post). If there is a better term to use, then I'd use it. You must have thought base life refered to your characters life not includeing charms/items? I dunno what your definition of base life is, but going by my definition, as well as mrJ's, it applys to your total life not includeing modifiers (IE: jah, shako, bk ring, oak, battle order). It does however include your vita, your +2 per char level and +20 life bottle quests, as well as your +life charms and your +life gear (excludeing shako/nk rings).

Maybe instead of calling it "base life" it could be called your "pre mod life"? Thats where you got confused. You thought your BO was bugged because you where going by your life without charms/items (which was 1.2k instead of 1.9k). BO will add +life from items and charms, just not jah/shako/bk ring/oak. Does that clear some things up?

Bo and Jah go off base life now (didn't on 09).

They altered the way BO and Jah and Oak work for 1.1 for obvious reasons. In .09 items like .08 shako's (40% life) would get calculated into BO auras as well as Oak sage auras. But they changed this for 1.1 because think of how nutty it would be to have a druid useing oak + bo + jah sockets, and if all those abilitys stacked off eachother. You would see chars with 10k+ life off there own effects. Same goes for other chars useing heart of the oak with bo, if oak and bo stacked... Let's just say necro's would be gods, not that they need any extra benefits. Since Call to arms and HoTo are commonplace, it would make the game far too easy. And the patch was designed to make PvM more difficult, and mass life chars would be a breeze.

I see now where there was a miscommunication, you figured base life refered to your chars life without any charms/items.

Hah, "Teleport is a must"
what an idiot

I have not yet been beaten by any paladin in 1.10 with teleport, and I don't use teleport myself. It's for weak nurbs? Same with BO, Oak, Doom ETC?

Typical responce from someone who doesn't even play the game anymore. I'm an idiot for suggesting the use of teleport vs necros, but you seem to have no problem defeating them so tell you what, log on west for a duel or two, we can see what a "nurb" you truly are. Gimme your acct and a time, this will be fun.

After your humbled 10-0, maybe you'll agree on the importance of teleport in this matchup. But I doubt it, your another stubborn clan-honor person who doesn't even play the game anymore and feels the need to police everyone else with your rules lawyering.

Maybe ppl would take your posts more seriously if you didn't act like the stereotypical pubby dueler. I haven't created any rules, but you can ask ppl around here whether they consider teleport cheap or not. I think you received a couple of replies already. So, why is teleport a must for a v/t? What makes it so hard to actually win the vast majority of all pubby duels with a well-designed v/t without using teleport? You must have a serious handicap....-_-

See above reply. If you guys are soo l337 that you don't need teleport to beat enigma necros, then prove it.

Actions speak louder than words

ƒenris

20-02-2004, 05:40

Windy > V/T, I think we've already had this discussion elsewhere.
I know you're supposed to be some godly v/t, but seriously take your 'anyone who duels in pubbies is a newb' prejudice elsewhere, there are no private duels on west ladder, I assume it's the same on other realms.

Dracoy

20-02-2004, 06:00

i can get my hammerdin up to 2.7k life without sacrificing gear if i go pvp. But whats the use of all that life when 1.7k is good enough for mf ^_^

Pravda

20-02-2004, 07:53

You do want to stand a chance vs necros do you not? Enigma necro with mass bonewalls, teleport is rather important. And since I always refer to pubby dueling, I'd like to see any non-teleporting V/T pally beat a enigma necro. It hasn't happened yet, and I doubt it will.

Typical responce from someone who doesn't even play the game anymore. I'm an idiot for suggesting the use of teleport vs necros, but you seem to have no problem defeating them so tell you what, log on west for a duel or two, we can see what a "nurb" you truly are. Gimme your acct and a time, this will be fun.

After your humbled 10-0, maybe you'll agree on the importance of teleport in this matchup. But I doubt it, your another stubborn clan-honor person who doesn't even play the game anymore and feels the need to police everyone else with your rules lawyering.

See above reply. If you guys are soo l337 that you don't need teleport to beat enigma necros, then prove it.

Actions speak louder than words

Have you ever seen a non-teleporting v/t beat a good non-teleporting bonenecro consistently then? I doubt it. That just won't happen. Since you obviously have to pwn everything and everybody to any price, I will from here on assume that you have a serious lack of self-esteem. I duel because of the interaction and because it's fun. Not just to pwn like you. If I did, I would probably use all the bm gear available, team up with other l337 ppl, townguard, and have a belt full of rejuvs, but you should know everything about that, right?

Also, read more closely what I wrote. I said that I win the vast majority of my duels in pubbys. Not all. And, I couldn't care less either. But thanks for calling me l337. Pubby games are not exactly crowded with good duelers. Sure you can find some good ones every once in a while, but most pubbys consist of less experienced players. You talk like it would be the opposite. Yes, I can beat enigma necros. Just because they can use teleport doesn't mean that they are even half-decent. Obviously, my v/t doesn't stand much of a chance against more experienced necros, but as I wrote above, I don't care. Why would I bother to use slow missiles, teleport, and whatever? If you can't accept a defeat, you shouldn't duel at all. To me, you sound like a waste of bnet space. Go back to the pvp forum and continue your comparisons of the best pvp chars instead......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

And btw, I'm on east.

DemonicTutor

20-02-2004, 08:10

You contributed nothing to the topic of this thread, if you wanna talk nostalgic about your private dueling community, then do it in the appropriate thread, and forum for that matter.

But belittleing people who enjoy the game for what it is, that has no place on diabloii (and im the one with low self-esteem? :scratch: ). If you wanna be a common flammer, then keep it to PM's and don't clutter the forums with useless posts.

Go ahead and preach to me why you dissaprove of useing enigma/cta, but do it in private so noone else has to be subjected to it.

Stick on topic polz...

FoodPoisoning

20-02-2004, 08:35

I never said everyone that duels in pubbies is newb...
and demonic, even with tele I dont think I have a chance vs a decent necro. However in pubbies they are very rare -_-;

I'm just sick of all this new "bm". Dueling is just no fun. It's even worse than Wrings and hexes. Hell I'd go back to those any day

whoever said I'm in clan-honor? Actually I hate it's guts. I've just been a legit dueler for a long time, and I hate to see this game ruined by these new items :(

sorry if i was a little mean or hotheaded...

Halbreed7250

20-02-2004, 10:01

Make your windy druid or your bm bone prison spamming necro or your fire ball sorc, or any of those bastards, GO AHEAD and throw on all of the possible stacking aura's and shouts, etc. that you can, but when you get bored of winning every single duel, and are tired of winning your smite duels with 33% amp damage and life leech, go ahead and create a character that is challenging to use. Actually I am hoping someone will reply to this post exactly and prove how using those characters are challenging aside from the cost of all the items you'll use on them.

I highly doubt that any of you will get bored of that, but I sure hope you do, boy would it be fun to be on the same level as all of you ELITE people who can afford every single new runeword and unique, because for the life of me I cannot and i guess that not only increases the challenge of me winning, but also increases the chance of me saying, "YES!! I LOVE DYING TO YOUR SKILL, WHERE DID YOU LEARN HOW TO PWN SO?!?!". I'm at a loss of how that can be fun, maybe that's just me, shoot i sold all my BM stuff and am having alot more fun with my 6 shaeled phase blade vs doomers, malice vs hammerdins/windy druids, gangel+dwarf star vs fireballers, and holy freeze+foh+charge vs necro's. well anyways, maybe that's why blizzard made all those cheap priced items- - - -for me to laugh in somone's face who spent 800 more runes on their eq than me. :)

I'm not sure this post went anywhere, just keep in mind that i'm rambling like I always do, and then wondering if anyone can understand a word i said...like i always do.

ƒenris

20-02-2004, 10:10

I don't know about you, but the only runes I spent on my wind druid are vex jah ber mal ist ohm.
The rest of the gear was found.
6 runes, omfg wow. :surprise: :surprise:

Halbreed7250

20-02-2004, 10:29

you sound as if you don't think 6 runes is alot. I'm very happy you're fortunate to afford all that!! " :surprise: "

anyhow, you're missing the rest of the post, keep in mind that I was also talking about wind druids in general, I'm positive that even if you wanted to build one without spending 6 runes, you would build it great and it would still pwn. good luck, i'm sure you'll need it with all the skill required for that character of yours :)

here i hated your :surprise:, keep it " :surprise: " <----looks like an idiot anyways

ƒenris

20-02-2004, 10:35

I do think it's a lot (for ladder, and for me because I'm not very rich), that was all my runes basically, but you're acting like we all spend hundreds on these characters and that's why you lose.
I'm understand that you don't like wind druids, since I'm partly responsible for making them this hated well known over-powered build :surprise: , it's very easy to say that any character type that beats us is too strong
There are plenty of :surprise: s to go around by the way.

Edit: BTW, the way you're acting is like going in 09 with your sacrifice pally and whining because zealots beat you and calling them newbs :lol:

Halbreed7250

20-02-2004, 10:47

That was way over my head, how about you say something that an idiot can understand. Obviously that's what you're implying that I am, but then again you reply as if I should understand your intellectual level arguments. Wait, am I an idiot? I'm confused now...which of us is?

I'm not being sarcastic at all, I really truly didn't understand the point or 'thesis' of that last post of yours.

ƒenris

20-02-2004, 10:50

Halbreed7250

20-02-2004, 11:33

I never called you an idiot, but I don't know what to do if you can't understand that post.
I think you're just trying to ignore that fact that your arguement got 'owned' the words of us newblette pubby duelers :lol:

First of all i never said you called me an idiot, like you said, i'm pretty sure you're right you never did, but then again i never said you did, i said you're implying it. If you're not, well then you may want to 'rephrase' your comments because people might get the wrong idea about you and your attitudes.

Now it's intriguing (and i might add that Im happy you came to such an insightful and intelligently constructed sentence....) that you think i'm ignoring the fact that i got owned by your newblette pubby dueler argument, but what can i say? I'll laugh to myself at that reply and keep my mouth shut.

On the other hand, something you could do about me not understanding your post is 'rephrase' it, i know its a new concept to you, you obviously cant 'rephrase' your characters, why should i expect anything different from your posts? Not that i am, just that It's pretty funny to think of myself expecting something that difficult from you 'nwblette pubby duelers'.

P.S. I'm not saying that's why I lose to rich people, I'm saying the reason rich people win versus non skilled poor people is cuz of their items, not their skill. I even went so far as to say I beat them....can you believe that *:surprise:*?? wow, how incredible *omfg* ....

I guess what i'm trying to get through some people's thick heads (not yours ;)) is that someone with items and an over powered char don't deserve respect like a poor person with skill does. something else you said was that it's easy for us to say that someone who beat's us is overpowered, well i guess I can't say much to that other than -windy druids and necros beat me- but i label them all (not limited to wind druids and necros) as over powered, even the ones i beat (with skill of course: that's that one thing that some poor people use to beat people with over powered gear and characters).

*xxxx* = the use of your own concepts because i'm still confused as to who is the idiot here...

ƒenris

20-02-2004, 12:09

'owned' the words of us newblette pubby duelers :lol:
Should have been 'in the words'

By the way, I agree that a lot of the skills are overpowered to a lot of characters.

Think of it this way

<as simple as I can put it>
paladin using atlantean and shaftstop joins an 09 pallypk game and gets beaten every duel, using sacrifice and thorns as his skills
"omg, you guys are so overpowered, damn fanat and cruel weapons are overpowered you newbs win because you're using overpowered items!!!"
while, a zealot is not overpowered to a whirlwind barb, is it? What I'm trying to say is calling something 'overpowered' is very objective.
</as simple as I can put it>

By the way, I don't see where you get this big arguement about skill, d2 is not a big 'skill' game, it's items, build, and strategy, I suppose skill could be how you execute this but still.
Go play a game like starcraft or something where it doesn't rely on your items and then talk about skill.

FoodPoisoning

21-02-2004, 02:40

Blade

21-02-2004, 03:23

Stupid people...
I don't care if you make a necro or a wind druid. I just hate these new idiots with "BM" items. It makes dueling ***.
D2 is all about skill. Perhaps you should try pal vs pal duels without your skilless items.
All about skill? wrong. Its all about skill distribution, item distribution, connection, decent computer. then skill.

ƒenris

21-02-2004, 05:53

Stupid people...
I don't care if you make a necro or a wind druid. I just hate these new idiots with "BM" items. It makes dueling ***.
D2 is all about skill. Perhaps you should try pal vs pal duels without your skilless items.
Zeal vs. Zeal was ALL items, so I assume you mean v/t duels.
Would someone without the runes and runes of charms and gear win, even if they were 'skilled'? Not likely.

Diminished-Soul

21-02-2004, 06:22

Now, now, Children...

THREAD CLOSED

Module88

21-02-2004, 19:54

You do want to stand a chance vs necros do you not? Enigma necro with mass bonewalls, teleport is rather important. And since I always refer to pubby dueling, I'd like to see any non-teleporting V/T pally beat a enigma necro. It hasn't happened yet, and I doubt it will. Perhaps gimme your account name and I can setup some nec vs v/t duels. And these aint your typical noob necs here either.

Against necros, using a paladin wouldn't be my first choice, so why bother? Chances of you winning EVEN with enigma are relatively small, depending on what you have, what he has, and who's behind the wheel.

See, this is where I had a feeling some wires got crossed. When I used the term "base life", it's used to described the number of life that is calculated into all the modifiers (and I explained this in just about every post). If there is a better term to use, then I'd use it. You must have thought base life refered to your characters life not includeing charms/items? I dunno what your definition of base life is, but going by my definition, as well as mrJ's, it applys to your total life not includeing modifiers (IE: jah, shako, bk ring, oak, battle order). It does however include your vita, your +2 per char level and +20 life bottle quests, as well as your +life charms and your +life gear (excludeing shako/nk rings).

As far as I'm concerned, base life is life that is white on your character screen. That is what Jah seems to go off of.

Typical responce from someone who doesn't even play the game anymore. I'm an idiot for suggesting the use of teleport vs necros, but you seem to have no problem defeating them so tell you what, log on west for a duel or two, we can see what a "nurb" you truly are. Gimme your acct and a time, this will be fun.

After your humbled 10-0, maybe you'll agree on the importance of teleport in this matchup. But I doubt it, your another stubborn clan-honor person who doesn't even play the game anymore and feels the need to police everyone else with your rules lawyering.