Fire Enchanted Explosion...WTF!?!!?!?!?!!? [Archive]

Squatdog

02-02-2004, 14:06

Early today I was doing an 8-player Hell Baal Run with my lvl 86 Fury Druid. I had 65/75/75/25 resists and near 5000 life with BO/OS, which I feel is fairly decent...

The last pack spawned and I hoed in along with a lvl 92 Barb and a 8x Druid. All the minions died and only Lister was left. I leisurely whacked him a few times then...BANG!!!

Das_Wolf was slain by Lister
lvl92 Barb was slain by Lister
lvl8x Druid was slain by Lister

WTF!?!!?!?!?

Can someone give me an explanation how this is even possible???

STINGER

02-02-2004, 14:23

What hole did you just crawl out of?

FE has been nasty all patch and eeven worse cursed, or multi enchanted like FE/LE or other.

det

02-02-2004, 14:31

What hole did you just crawl out of?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Shame you cannot search the forums anymore after the HDD went AWOL.

In short: Do not stand around when a FE boss explodes. He does massive Physical and Fire explosion in a big radius, which often is not even survived by full block, full DS and/or full resists, even absorb.

Places to avoid FE at all costs: NM/Hell Council, Ancients, Minions.

Other "features" to look out for: Vipers bonespear in Nihlataks tomb. Insta death possible

STINGER

02-02-2004, 14:42

Ya i noticed that recently, Nithlak Hell was not all that bad but it was Hell getting to him!

Squatdog

02-02-2004, 14:50

The thing is, it's so inconsistent.

I kill FE left and right without any problem, but every once in a while...BOOM!

The great thing about being a Druid is that the one-hit-kills usually just make you transform back to human. In fact, I'm not sure how I even got killed instantly by Lister...

"What hole did you just crawl out of?"

lol...Blizzard were making some noises about fixing the FE bug(s). I guess I should be grateful than Talic can't kill a whole party with one Whirlwind...

Jedi

02-02-2004, 14:55

i think the fixed explosion is corrected to 25%. but i am not sure about the number. i usually try to avoid highlife fe monsters so the % is not important to me.

lister is one of a few monsters that has a ton of life.. in 8 ppl game he even gets more life.the explosion is linked to the amount of life of the monster. u just need to be cursed which happens often at the last minion pack and the explosion hurts a lot then even the effect is downgraded.

regards
Jedi

ZappaFan

02-02-2004, 15:08

I believe it has a lot to do with the number of hitpoints the monster had to begin with. I've killed hell Pindleskin a million times, and he's FE all the time. His death explosion has never been a big deal (low hit points). Lister has pretty high hit points in hell.

det

02-02-2004, 15:12

lol...Blizzard were making some noises about fixing the FE bug(s). I guess I should be grateful than Talic can't kill a whole party with one Whirlwind...

Well, it was Hell that they fixed..and suddenly NM FE becomes an issue...more than Hell apparently.

The Thrower of the Ancients pack could kill you with one hit if he was FE..can he still?

STINGER

02-02-2004, 15:22

Fe alone in hell, no other terrible mods isnt an issue, but if you combine FE with some curse like decrep or amp, less than perfect resists which 65 fire is less than perfect, CE or LE, or Spectreal.

i beleive it is FE/LE/Spectreal Lidsters that will one hit kill you and if its not hime it is FE/CE/Spectreal. Simple fact is, know all the mods, dont messs with a "boosted FE" with big life. Extra strong can be an issue also.

FE in NM wasnt cchanged and since it is NM and many people attempt to gear items a bit earlier than needed like a CCB at lvl 63 FE can really be an issue. They only changed FE in Hell not NM, soe FE Listers, council, Hepesto, and many more in NM and Hell can be an easy death for you. Is it Colonzo or whatever, the first mionon pack boss? Well that little punk wiht basically no life can hurt pretty smartly on his death when FE.

Squatdog

02-02-2004, 15:22

"The Thrower of the Ancients pack could kill you with one hit if he was FE..can he still?"

I think it applied to any of the 3, but is fixed now.

Wayfaring

02-02-2004, 16:25

The last pack spawned and I hoed in along with a lvl 92 Barb and a 8x Druid. All the minions died and only Lister was left. I leisurely whacked him a few times then...BANG!!!

Das_Wolf was slain by Lister
lvl92 Barb was slain by Lister
lvl8x Druid was slain by Lister

WTF!?!!?!?!?

Sorry to hear about the loses. This is exactly why I've given up on melee characters. At least with MSLE in 1.09 you could gear a character to handle the mods. In 1.10, you can make a ranged character or spend your time tip-toeing around monsters hoping that you can avoid instant death. Throw in IM every 10 seconds on top of that and I'll stick to ranged characters. Last three melee characters died with max block and max resists. No thanks...

skunkbelly

02-02-2004, 18:57

Sorry to hear about the loses. This is exactly why I've given up on melee characters. At least with MSLE in 1.09 you could gear a character to handle the mods. In 1.10, you can make a ranged character or spend your time tip-toeing around monsters hoping that you can avoid instant death. Throw in IM every 10 seconds on top of that and I'll stick to ranged characters. Last three melee characters died with max block and max resists. No thanks...

If you intend to only level up in Baal runs, then yes, melee characters are dangerous. But you don't *have* to do Baal runs. There are dozens of places in the game to fight critters; only in the CS and Worldstone/Throne do you need to worry about IM, and even in those places, there are back-up options (ranged attacks, zerk). FE is still an issue, but you can always check mods and run.

I like it that there are some creatures that are dangerous/impossible to kill. Keeps it interesting. If you can just steamroll anything in the game, then who cares?

kurg

02-02-2004, 19:12

The thing is, it's so inconsistent.

I think this is why I fear ANY FE boss sooooo much.

I only play ranged characters for the most part. But the few times I've nearly been killed by FE was when it was Spectral hit too and one other type of element. Also, as people say, large-life makes the effect worse (and I'm sure you were in an 8 player game where lister has what, 100k hitpoints?).

Sadly the only character I lost to this is the one freaking boss that cannot even move!!!! Lol!

I lost my enchant sorc in nm to coldworm (the boss in maggot 3) because I figured I could Frozen orb him with my low level orb. I was stupid and was standing at point blank range, and I never checked his mods because of course the only thing to worry about is his death poison, right?! I mean the fat bastard can't even move, what is there to worry about? Wrong! His death explosion (cold enchanted fire enchanted and something else?) was instant death for my sorc with 600 life (in NM).

I'm probably the only person on all the realms who has died to the only boss that cannot move, lol.

Corndog

02-02-2004, 19:31

Chiller_babe

02-02-2004, 19:33

I lost my enchant sorc in nm to coldworm (the boss in maggot 3) because I figured I could Frozen orb him with my low level orb. I was stupid and was standing at point blank range, and I never checked his mods because of course the only thing to worry about is his death poison, right?! I mean the fat bastard can't even move, what is there to worry about? Wrong! His death explosion (cold enchanted fire enchanted and something else?) was instant death for my sorc with 600 life (in NM).

I'm probably the only person on all the realms who has died to the only boss that cannot move, lol.

You might think this - but I lost my first ladder charac in exactly the same way. Level 58 Pally from max life to deeds in a blink of an eye. I was so suprised I just sat there for about 5 mins in complete shock that a fat maggot could kill my Tesladin:)

Chill

Silkweed

02-02-2004, 20:48

Why would you be firing frozen orb at Coldworm? He's cold immune in NM.

Azonian

02-02-2004, 21:25

Why would you be firing frozen orb at Coldworm? He's cold immune in NM.

LOL i was thinking the same thing...maybe his merc got him? :)

rachelene2

03-02-2004, 02:05

Instead of soiling a new pair of underwear everytime I do fight FE big life bosses, I try to keep the same pair when I play. The ones I've stained repeatedly before. Make no mistake, I do wash and bleach them, but there is always a little something remaining even after the most stringent scouring, and I see no point in staining more pairs.

Long Johns with elastic or velcro strips at the ankles is a good idea too for doing Baal Minions in Hell, or even for those Baal NM runs if you attempt to melee. No point in overflowing over the carpet to top it all. I've lost good chars twice to LEFE bartuc in NM. I've earned the right to be afraid.

Mecal

03-02-2004, 03:06

3 deaths in one...

i hope you took a screanie!
:xx:

Wayfaring

03-02-2004, 03:32

If you intend to only level up in Baal runs, then yes, melee characters are dangerous. But you don't *have* to do Baal runs. There are dozens of places in the game to fight critters; only in the CS and Worldstone/Throne do you need to worry about IM, and even in those places, there are back-up options (ranged attacks, zerk). FE is still an issue, but you can always check mods and run.

At some point, those are the only spots to gain experience.

I like it that there are some creatures that are dangerous/impossible to kill. Keeps it interesting. If you can just steamroll anything in the game, then who cares?

I would agree if it were across the board that there were creatures too dangerous/impossible to kill. Unfortunately, only melee characters are singled out for this "feature". If there were also an equal number of creatures that caused instant death to any character outside melee attack range then the game could be just as "interesting" to all characters.

While were at it, how about a curse that is the ranged counterpart to IM. The game could be really interesting at that point...

:grrr:

nebby

03-02-2004, 05:32

across the board that there were creatures too dangerous/impossible to kill. Unfortunately, only melee characters are singled out for this "feature". If there were also an equal number of creatures that caused instant death to any character outside melee attack range then the game could be just as "interesting" to all characters.

While were at it, how about a curse that is the ranged counterpart to IM. The game could be really interesting at that point...

:grrr:

Well, I had hoped that 1.10 would see a serious boost to the "mana IM" that baal & succubi use, in that other monsters could have a % chance to cast it- regardless of mana-hp ratio. Also, they could have just made IM apply to ranged attacks as well, say at a lower percentage, the same way that ranged attacks have lower CB percentages.

Alas, we meleers are the laughing stock of the meteorb sorcs, hammeradins, and windruids, who are of course happy to have your BO, OS, whatever, and then say you "suxxorz" when they immediately mow down everything in their path, while you actually read the mods...

Wayfaring

03-02-2004, 06:29

Alas, we meleers are the laughing stock of the meteorb sorcs, hammeradins, and windruids, who are of course happy to have your BO, OS, whatever, and then say you "suxxorz" when they immediately mow down everything in their path, while you actually read the mods...

LOL... this is so very true. I can remember playing one of my many attempted avenger/zealots with friends and by the time I could read the mods, everything was dead.

NightShade

03-02-2004, 06:38

Remember the guy that was killed by the FE in hell, with a Windforce like 2 inches away from his body?

I was truely sad for him.

Fe ce spec hits are 1 shot killers.

Xel'Naga

03-02-2004, 07:46

nebby

03-02-2004, 08:42

Being a Druid there is no chance you could have been killed on fe explosion. Druids have a second life and from your orginal post you said all other minons were dead with only lister left. After lister's explosion you would be in human form with 1 hp left. I should know since my own druid has surived about 6 such incidents BEFORE they fixed the fe bug.

I have a strong feeling you are full of *bs* Fe has been fixed and only a combination on lister of FE/LE/Spec AND being decriptified will do just about 4k damage in a 8 player game.

A lot of lonely people out there seeking any kind of attention.

WTF are you talking about? I've been in games where druids bit it on an FE lister. Maybe I was lagging, and something else killed them, other minion, etc, but it does happen- also not quite sure what this human form with 1 life left means. Suppose you have a druid, originally with 3K hps, but has taken damage to 1K left. You're saying no matter what amount of single frame damage they take, they will survive, but have 1 hp left. Well, by god sign me up for my next druid, and duelling here I come!

Xel'Naga

03-02-2004, 10:00

I suggest you pull your head out of where the sun dont shine.

det

03-02-2004, 11:02

I suggest you pull your head out of where the sun dont shine.

Instead of this reply, I would have appreciated an explanation of the 1 HP thing. I never encountered it..or saw it - and obviously the guy you refering too did neither. In the originals posters Thread the lv 8x druid was insta-killed, which would speak against your theory.

By the way...I think ranged attackers (like sorcs and Necros) have the disadvantage in form of only 2 HP per vit point invested and bowazons cannot use a shield, so no 75% block here. Sorcs can get "Blood Mana" - and if you feel that as a melee Paladin you are getting a bad deal from the party, you can switch off your party friendly aura. As a Barbarian, you can chose not to give BO..only to yourself in a quiet corner.

That IS being a bastard, but hey...you guys complain so much about other party members that call you a "nOOb" that I think it would be well deserved :lol:

Just remember - there is always going to be a build that is stronger. There is always going to be THE cookie cutter build for a class. Bowazons were almost unplayable in 1.00 - 1.07. With the fix in 1.09 and the GA bug, everybody was screaming at them being overpowered. Paladins used to be quite weak, now they rock. Elemental Druids? no no in 1.07 - Winddruids are killer machines now...etc etc. Please stop complaining..

TheDarkSide

03-02-2004, 11:31

The 1 hp thing is a blessing and a curse imo . You will revert to human form with one hitpoint remaining just before you die . But usually you will be slain as whatever it is that hit you will usually be there still and whack you before you can run away. Ive only survived thru this one time and I ran like a madman drinking juvs the whole way .

The Fe bug has claimed me 3 times so far in 1.10 and it is very annoying .
lvl 64 orb / meteor sorc - NM act 3 - council run - Bremm I think
lvl 74 Whirlwind barb - Hell act 2 - on the way to Duriels lair - Beetle Juice
lvl 77 Maul Werebear - Hell act 2 - on the way to Radermant - No freaking clue - this one stings the most because it was instantaneous . I didnt even have a chance to Drink a pot or anything . Was on lvl 2 in the sewers and came upon a skeleton boss , the party only saw FI mod before it died - because fireclaws bear in the group noticed no damage being done . I had well over 3k life and max fire and lightning resists and it was gone in an instant . So much for melee characters being the be all end all anymore . Good luck on the rebuild .

:xflash:

hoyster

03-02-2004, 18:13

I'm not sure on the exact details, but it seems that whenever a shifted druid (bear or wolf) receives lethal damage in one frame they unshift to a human with one HP left, was was mentionede earlier you usually get whacked right after. I have been instakilled without the benefit of the shift before though, perhaps it only applies if you have a certain percantage of life left? Or perhaps the damage from the FE was actually delt in 2 seperate frames, one for the fire and one for the physical, and so the first shot took his life down and the second shot killed him before the shifting animation could trigger. There are several possibilities, but i don't know the exact details of how the shift works, I would not say you ALWAYS get the benefit of a shift, but it certainly seems to happen often especially with high to full life.

HR-Tecira

03-02-2004, 18:53

I suppose one possibility is that it was FELE lister since that combo often has some invisble lighting for a short period after the death so the explosion takes the druid to the shift at 1 hitpoint state and the lighting kills. Maybe that also makes it so you don't see the shift animation and if just seems to go to instant deeds.

I have had one instance of 1 hit kill on a werewolf. This was some time ago with my first ladder character (armageddon wolf). The thing that killed me was an estrong/efast/cursed beetle boss (do not remember it being FE) I believe in this case that it was the juve bug that killed me. Got amped and started retreating and I believe I hit a juve while doing so then bam dead. (the juve bug is if you hit a juve at the instant you are hit with elemental damage and then are rapidly hit again with the same elemental type the damage is multipied and can result in insta kills)

Bearcub

03-02-2004, 19:54

I think people are confused. Bears get a second chance at life, wolves die.

Wayfaring

03-02-2004, 20:32

By the way...I think ranged attackers (like sorcs and Necros) have the disadvantage in form of only 2 HP per vit point invested and bowazons cannot use a shield, so no 75% block here.

What is the advantage to having more HP and having 75% block when you have instant death regardless?

Sorcs can get "Blood Mana"

If blood mana killed in an instant like IM it would be worth discussing

...and if you feel that as a melee Paladin you are getting a bad deal from the party, you can switch off your party friendly aura. As a Barbarian, you can chose not to give BO..only to yourself in a quiet corner.

I never felt like I as getting a bad deal from the party. I was trying to explain that the party was so efficient in killing speed, that I couldn't identify the creature mods fast enough to be of any assistance.

Just remember - there is always going to be a build that is stronger. There is always going to be THE cookie cutter build for a class. Bowazons were almost unplayable in 1.00 - 1.07. With the fix in 1.09 and the GA bug, everybody was screaming at them being overpowered. Paladins used to be quite weak, now they rock. Elemental Druids? no no in 1.07 - Winddruids are killer machines now...etc etc. Please stop complaining..

I don't have a problem with each class having "THE cookie cutter build". The problems faced by a melee character span multiple character classes though. It's not a matter of what is most effective, but rather that any melee build has become unplayable. As paladins are my favorite class, I'd have to disagree that pallies were weak, at least concerning PvM. Apologies to all the hammerdins that are taking full advantage of BH, but IMO, pallies should be more concerned with increased attack speed than faster cast rate.

So as someone who prefers melee.... I'm going to keep complaining! :p

skunkbelly

03-02-2004, 20:37

As for the question earlier about hell Baal runs being the only place you can get experience at some point... iirc, that threshold is level 95. Could someone verify?

Anyway, the point is, it's way high, and most of the people worried about IM probably have other options for leveling, if they choose.

Squatdog

04-02-2004, 07:42

"I have a strong feeling you are full of *bs*"

If you actually bothered to read my post, you'd see I was asking why I got killed outright instead of just being transformed.

We were Amped and Lister was FE in a 8-player game, but other than that I didn't really pay attention. The reason for this is that is was SO EASY to the point of being farcial as the Minions went down in a matter of seconds and Lister was almost dead before we started whacking him. The only thing I can think of is if there was some kind of secondary damage over the top of FE.

I've been transformed by FE(and in general play) a couple of times and have got away with it by running away and hitting a rejuv, which has become instinctive over the years.

repoarto

04-02-2004, 15:08

FE-mosters .... after that fix... hmm.. havent tested much.. but Lister is a pain in arse... when L is FE&LE then it hits very hard. My 91 level barb with bo&oak 56xx hp.. if i remember it was time before fix.. lister one hit almost killed me.. i dont even want to ques how much lister does damage when explodes.. even after fix.

csarmi

04-02-2004, 18:50

Standing around a FE boss as he is dying? You did deserve that fate with such stupidity. FE explosions were always nasty. That can be avoided quite easily, as well. Just don't be here.

boylehatesu

04-02-2004, 23:57

Forbiddian

05-02-2004, 09:04

I lost my lvl 82 druid with over 6k life to a fire enchanted extra strong hephisto in hell. No transforming to human no passing go no $200 I was dead as a door nail. So Bug = not fixed and any idiot that flames him for dying to a bug is pathetic

Hephasto is LE, so what probably happened (as some previous poster was saying, I think), is that the LE starts out, but the FE instantly hits you on death. This starts the animation and then the Lightning crawls over and you die to that.

Remember, there isn't much difference between 75% Fire Resists and 65% Fire Resists.

Half of it is Physical, and with Amplify Damage, 2/3rds of it is Physical. The difference between 75% and 65% is only 3.3_3%.

Here's another theory: You know how Baal cleans up the corpses after each wave? Would it be possible that that deals 1 damage or more? It looks like the CE animation, but as we all know, lazy-assed Blizzard repeats TONS of animations.

In response to boylehatesu: Yes, we all know about the bug. He should know, too. Standing next to Lister while Amped is like "asking a homosexual half-ogre to wrap its genitals in barbed wire before abusing you sexually".

At best, I think that the transformation will save your life once. Relying on it to save you when it *OBVIOUSLY* fails is like dueling a Ethereal Snapper with 48 SOJs in your stash, 28 life, Max Block/Dodge.

You will eventually fail the block and you'll lose your 48 SOJ's.

I think that an easy way to solve the problem is to have "cannot be cursed" gear.

Stick in as a Jewel Mod or something, and then that would stop Iron Maiden deaths, and these Amplify Damage/Decrepify insta-frags.

A good Melee character will have max DR, at least 75% FR, probably absorb, etc.

They'll be taking at most 40% of a FE explosion, and with even 3k life, that's not that hard to handily survive.

Cannot be cursed would also resist a lot of deaths to multi-shot monsters (which can, for some strange reason, hit you all 3 times when your multishot can only hit them back for one).

EDIT: Of course, this won't happen, but it's interesting to talk about how Blizzard could have stopped a bunch of complaining about the game (I think that the FE bug is pretty biased, but so is Tommy Hilfiger, so deal with it).

lfd

05-02-2004, 18:49

Hephasto is LE
No, he isn't.

WackenOpenAir

05-02-2004, 19:08

Wayfaring

05-02-2004, 19:28

I think that an easy way to solve the problem is to have "cannot be cursed" gear.

Nice idea... maybe change the pally cleansing aura to cannot be cursed. The effective range for the party could increase with skill levels. Hmmm....

Blizzard could have stopped a bunch of complaining about the game (I think that the FE bug is pretty biased, but so is Tommy Hilfiger, so deal with it).

I deal with it by playing sorcs now... :p

Squatdog

07-02-2004, 13:56

"Standing around a FE boss as he is dying? You did deserve that fate with such stupidity."

lol...it's easy for you to say if you're a non-melee character sitting on your fat arse aproximately 3 kilometres away from the actual combat.

It was a swirling maelstrom of meteors, blizzard, lightning and hammers. We could barely make out Lister in the first place, let alone read his stats...

MiTEG

07-02-2004, 22:11

Remember, there isn't much difference between 75% Fire Resists and 65% Fire Resists.

Actually, with 65 resist you'll take 40% more damage than with 75 resist.

Spero

08-02-2004, 04:08

Actually, with 65 resist you'll take 40% more damage than with 75 resist.
Right on, brother!
65% = you take 35% of the elemental damage
75% = you take 25%

35/25 same as 7/5

7 is 40% greater than 5.

Your post really helped me, because I never thought this through before. At least I didn't think about it in the way you explained it. I knew resists were important, but this really helps to explain why. :)

Thanks!

Raven-Hood

09-02-2004, 01:29

I cant believe there are people flaming the poor dude for dieing. WTF is wrong with you guys???????

Anyways, speaking of fes, I saw the perfect elemental enchanted dude in arc sanc once. Some goat had fe ce le spec hit and aura enchanted with conviction lol. Luckily noone died, but the fact that something can spawn with these stats sucks lol.

I died to fe once (only once) on my skewerdin( I made up the name) was using zeal + conviction and all the fire damage I could get from equip, did not have all the equip yet but I had 95% fr and fire absorb and max 890 hp at lvl 5x I think in nightmare. Was slicing and dicing griswold and did not have any trouble knocking him out. then BHAM, was dead, full hp to nothing. Was really Ironic that a stupid amp/fe griswold could take me out, when I took him out so easily.

Anyways, I was thinking that the ulimate fe would look like this:

Duriel (since of where he is)
Holy Freeze
FE
CE
Stoneskin
Cursed with amp
Extra fast
Mana burn

I was thinking that this would be the most possible (if possible) lethal mob in the game in nightmare/hell if he had these stats. Mainly because you would be slow/him to fast for him not to die next to atleast one member of your group in that chamber. He would have killer hp, so the fe alone would be lethal, but frost nova to top it off dam. Not only that, but just to make it a pain to kill him, he would have manaburn and naturally holy freeze. Good luck fighting this dude lol.

Raven-Hood

det

09-02-2004, 12:13

Luckily, our 5 BIG BOSSES never spawn with any mods ;)

That's why the game should not be called DIABLO (he is such a whimp) but rather:

"Gloams of Terror" or

"FE Goat bosses from hell" or

"Scary Dolls"

:lol:

strijdje

09-02-2004, 12:26

"Gloams of Terror"
:lol:

I vote for that one :thumbsup:

Jonathan Reed

09-02-2004, 15:43

I died to one of those Conviction aura Fire Enchanted Cold Enchanted Bosses. Just Nasty. Lost my lvl 77 Necro in an instant. Shoot your resists to hell and then boom. Deeds

ConnerMacleod

09-02-2004, 16:04

I like the FE situation, wakes me up when I lose 75% of my hitpoints in Hell with 80% Fire res and 20+% DR. If I go through this, then I imagine the other players go nuts when it happens to them.

It keeps HC equal, so don't complain. Blizz said there would be monsters that many people just could not kill (well, they could, but shouldn't).

MMMMmmm, Cursed, Might Aura Enchanted, Fire Enchanted Lister. That would be a very nasty explosion of the 10,000th magnitude. I would love to see the number of Deeds that ring up in that game.

nebby

10-02-2004, 02:49

MMMMmmm, Cursed, Might Aura Enchanted, Fire Enchanted Lister. That would be a very nasty explosion of the 10,000th magnitude. I would love to see the number of Deeds that ring up in that game.

What woudl be even better would be a screenie of the litany of curses flung immediately after. Anyhow, the game is definitely more interesting now, in that in any given hell game you're much more likely to see some "XXXX was slain by...." than before. Whether or not the FE thing is a bug, my condolensces to the lost heros, but I still say it keeps it interesting. For me, its always going to be a matter of when, not if my top characters die. The whole point of HC, no?