It’s no surprise that the Monk class has been in need of some love pre 2.1. However with the second iteration of the patch on the PTR that need has not yet been abided. People are still clamoring for more sweeping changes(pun intended).
I was a heavy Monk user pre ROS and took a break with the xpac to delve into my first love(WD) and my new fling(crusader). I returned to the Monk only a few weeks ago and what I found was a shell of what I had left. After suffering for a long time as a WD it was nice when they finally rose to prominence. After a while on the top I wanted a new challenge and set my sights back on my monk, however even this challenge seems to daunting then all that time as a struggling WD. Diablo Forum MVP Druin put together an eloquent look at the myriad issues facing the class:
I am back from vacation and I am looking to write up a concise review of where we stand in 2.1.
My plan is to give a quick overview of our major issues then discuss the 2.1 changes and how they affect the various facets of our class.
I will be using this thread to fine-tune what we want to communicate to the devs and then I will make a major “state of monks in 2.1″ thread on the PTR forums to attempt to get some help for our lovely class!
1. Current Monk Issues
This is really at the forefront of the monk issues.
Since the release of RoS, monks have been having a tough time with DPS. We have a very limited range of options mostly centering around the skill Exploding Palm. (Un)fortunately EP is being changed as it breaks greater rifts (along with Rimeheart and Furnace) so our only source of widely competitive damage is going away. This leaves monks in a pretty bad spot.
Our spenders do very little damage (I mean VERY little) relative to their cost and our generators are used more as proc-vehicles for Odyn Son, Thunderfury, Shard of Hate and Rime/Furnace more than as sources of damage themselves. This leaves us with our 6pc Raiment of 1000 Storms which makes DS proc a 3000% weapon damage attack on cast. 3000% damage is a lot and it scales with lightning damage gear but DS has a flat-immutable 6 second cooldown. This can be mitigated to some extent by using Jawbreaker to give “free” dashing strike charges but that interaction is quite clunky.
Basically, monks will be forced into a clunky, hard-to-use situationally terrible Storm-breaker set in order to compete with other classes in damage. If they don’t want to use this mechanic, they will do very poor damage.
Next on the list is our ability to survive. This is a more controversial topic with some finding survival to be quite easy and many others finding it to be quite hard. In 2.1 with the change from dex giving dodge to dex giving armor and the change from OWE to Harmony, many monks who had minor synergy with OWE will see a minor tankiness boost. (my Raiment set for example)
On the other hand, monk who are deeply invested into OWE will see a major tankiness loss. (my Shatter-palm set). In either case, both types of monks probably have a lot of trouble living in T6 without 2x Unity or the constant dashing from Storm-breaker. Why is this? Because monks have to face-tank so much stuff.
Our primary source of resource generation comes from skills that require you to be up-close and personal with mobs which means a lot of damage can’t be avoided. To compensate for this, end-game monks are forced to take defensive passives (Harmony) defensive skills (Epiphany-shroud / Serenity / Inner Sanc / Blinding Flash) and CDR in basically every single spec. This is extremely limiting to the monk playstyle though arguably less of a problem than the DPS as the defensive skill/CDR solution does exist.
Additionally, sustain is nearly non-existent. LoH requires primary affixes which takes away from our already terrible DPS, LPS is the same, LPSS both takes primary affixes AND is extremely poor and Globes took a pretty big hit in 2.1. Monks actually have access to healing skills but, for some reason, they are tuned to be SO weak that they are essentially non-existent.
This is a more fundamental problem than the other two issues. Mere number tweaks would likely not result in this issue being resolved.
Regular readers will have noticed quite a few changes on Diablo: IncGamers since the launch of Reaper of Souls which was the motivation for us to make some of the changes we had been thinking about for a while.
When RoS launched we pushed the first stage of front page layout changes live. We know everyone likes to read their content in different ways so the site was changed to a similar layout to the main IncGamers site. Of course not every one will love that format so in the past week we set to work on the second phase which was giving you the option to read the content in the old format if you so desired.
In case you hadn’t spotted it, there are a couple of buttons above the news that allow you to switch to your preferred format.
Probably the toughest job we had to undertake was the forums. We have used the same forum system for around a decade and there were millions of posts to port over. It was important to us to make sure that threads from the old forum were not lost, we’d have hell to pay from you guys if they went missing Remember the great forum crash of 2003? That was not pretty.
So why the change? There were numerous reasons, the next version of the same forum was bloated with features that were useless to the community here. Spammers were also a consideration and the previous software was starting to struggle with the rise in spammers over the last couple of years. We needed a system that could pro- actively catch them and then make life easier for IncGamers moderators to deal with anything that managed to slip through.
The end results once we switched were good. The forums are now easier to use, faster and more robust. It’s taken some time to iron out issues with posts moved over from the old system but I would say we are 95% there with most things now. The forum is now easier to use and has more features to track new content additions.
One of the main issues we had during the change was with your logins. We have a custom login system that ties your forum account to the main site. When we moved forums that obviously broke down and had to be recreated. One of the issues we came up against was the inability for guests to post in the news and members who were logged in seeing a captcha. This was not acceptable so it took a few days for me to sort out but thankfully it now all works.
Regarding commenting on news, originally we had the news post into the community forum but as things move quite quickly here as far as content is concerned, we thought it best to create a separate forum for the news discussions. This reorganisation prevents any community forum discussion being lost in a pile of news. Your discussions are important after all.
Regarding accounts. Some of you have been registered here for over a decade and we have been helping members who have had login issues since the switch because they no longer have access to the email they originally registered with. If there are any of you still caught in that trap then we can sort it for you. Send an email here and we will deal with it.
With the new forums came new features, and something we’ve wanted to do for some time is highlight pro-active members and also award trophies for actions by the community. Elly sat down over a few days to come up with the points and reward system. You may have spotted the icons on threads but so you know how it works I have posted all of the trophies below for reference.
There are still a few things to do but the core updates are now in place. Your feedback on anything we do is much appreciated and a special thanks to the PALS who have helped make all the changes possible with their contributions.
Thread Starter -Points: 15 -You have started 5 Threads
Topic Raiser – Points: 45 -You have started 20 Threads
Town Cryer – Points: 90 -You have started 50 Threads
Confabulator – Points: 91 -You have started 80 Threads
Primary Source – Points: 1 – Somebody out there liked one of your posts.
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Slow Experience Gain in Reaper of Souls: A Real Problem?Posted 14 Jan 2014 by
We talked about slow experience gain in Reaper of Souls on the new podcast, and it’s come up in a lot of fan feedback lately, so I did some testing tonight and wanted to write more on the issue. I’ll start off by quoting a thread with a big list of RoS issues from Battle.net, since it encapsulates a lot of the current issues with the game.
The whole thread is here on B.net — it got a Blue reply but only to ask for clarification on one of the bugs, so I won’t quote it here. All the OP’s comments are in the the quote boxes; comments by me are in normal formatting. Let’s start with the longest issue, regarding experience and level up speed:
1. Increase trash monster density outside of Rifts to be at least close to 1.0.8 levels or implement a density slider.
2. Increase the experience gain in RoS because it´s a fraction of patch 1.0.8.
I’ll agree with the OP’s point that exp gain is too slow once you hit lvl 70, but let’s start off positive — the 1-70 process is much improved in RoS! It’s faster, you can do it in Adventure Mode if it’s not your first char, and thanks to dynamic mlvl scaling you don’t have to regrind the same content. If you’ve got any kind of decent gear with +exp you can easily hit lvl 45-50 by Act 5 on a single pass in Story Mode. And while the 60s are still lame due to the imminence of lvl 70 and the real game starting, they’re way better than the fearsone fifties of D3.Once you hit 70 though… things get really slow. Slow in feel and slow in actuality, since exp gain is a lot slower in RoS than in D3. The feel is slow thanks mostly to Paragon 2.0, since individual chars change nothing but equipment once they hit 70 and there’s no regular level up or steady sense of progression. I worried about that right at the start of the beta and my feelings haven’t changed over a month+ more testing.
On the new podcast Rankil lamented that he’d only gained 5 Paragon levels since the Closed RoS beta began, going from 82 to 87. That made Xanth and me laugh, since neither of us had gained a single Paragon level since the closed beta began several weeks ago. That’s partly since we’re both in the 100s in our paragon levels and need more exp to increase, but exp gain per minute/hour is much slower in RoS than in D3… with some caveats.
It’s not that you need a billion exp to gain a level, either. Here’s a screenshot from last night of my softcore Monk sitting at the upper edge of Paragon 125. After I took this shot I played a pretty long game in Adventure Mode doing all the bounties in Acts 1, 3, 4, and 5, plus two Nephalem Rifts, and not until nearly the end of the second rift did I ding to 126. As you can see in the screen, I needed about 11m exp to get to that point, and it took me over an hour to get it. Decent EXP gain when farming in D3 is 1m per minute (with much higher rates possible on higher difficulty levels), which means that pulling 11m in an hour+ is a pretty big come down.
Click through for much more on EXP in RoS…
Monk Experience Testing
My Monk wasn’t geared for EXP and I wasn’t really hunting it. I was after items and variety of play and some fun, and I found the later two. Still, I was surprised at how slowly the EXP game came, once I was actually measuring it. Details:
So I wasn’t really hunting EXP, but still, I was playing very quickly and wasting no time in town, hardly picking up anything to slow me down, etc. There’s no way I’d have pulled less than 30m exp in that amount of play time in the live version of D3. Even on MP1, even doing the same game instead of restarting new games to keep farming the juiciest areas…
Experience Farming in Reaper of Souls?
The above said… I’m not actually sure what I would do if I wanted to farm EXP in RoS. It’s pretty easy in D3 now; you just put on +exp gear, play the highest MP level you can kill quickly on, get your five stacks of Nephalem Valor up, and then head to some of the areas of highest monster density such as the Fields of Misery and the Decaying Crypt dungeon below it.Those areas are found in RoS (and the D3 PTR) but they’re far lower on density, and most characters have a lot lower +exp bonus in RoS. In a way that makes the comparison invidious, since with +exp gear and +exp merc gear and MP and Nephalem Valor my character would have had something like +400% EXP in D3, while I had 125% (50% gear + 75% from Hard) in Reaper of Souls. Even allowing for that, there’s simply nothing like the D3 monster density to farm in RoS. Not anywhere in the five acts, and not even in Nephalem Rifts (once in a very long while you do get a level in a Rift that is just sardine can jammed with enemies.)
This is obviously an intentional change by the devs. As we’ve discussed in the past, the v1.08 Monster density thing was a short term fix to tide players over while the devs toiled on large game changes for Reaper of Souls. RoS isn’t that much less monster crowded in most areas, and the overall balance feels good. It’s never as empty as some levels of D3 was pre-v1.08, and when there is an event (often from a Cursed Chest) or area with thicker crowds, it makes a noticeable difference which changes up the gameplay nicely.
Which is fine, but if you do want to kill huge hordes of monsters, and you do want to concentrate on racking up EXP… what do you do in RoS? Complain in a forum post, I guess, since there’s nothing in the gameplay now that really gives you that option. Nothing that plays just like the super crowded EXP orgy players have grown used to in the 8 months since Patch 1.0.8 was released.
There are a lot of player suggestions about this. Some suggest that it’s not a problem and that higher density was unnatural and cheesy and made the game very one-note. That’s open to debate, but even players who feel that way will want some way to gain more EXP more quickly in RoS, and if it doesn’t come from killing more monsters more quickly, I’m not sure what it should be.A density slider is another common suggestion. A way for players to customize their play experience. Such an option would have to come with a trade off; lowered Magic Find or reduced total item drops, but that would be okay with me. I like variety in play styles, and if players want to hunt items they can do Bounties. If they want unpredictability they can do Nephalem Rifts. If they want EXP they can turn up the density slider and grind that progress bar.
New +exp gear is another possibility. Lots of items get +exp per kill in the secondary stats, and though the bonuses to that stat are much higher in RoS, often around +150-180 per kill, they’re still irrelevant compared to the total exp required for leveling up. But what if those numbers were something like +3-10% exp? Get good rolls to that property on 4 or 6 items, stick on a HR as well, put a Ruby in your hat, and you’re controlling your own destiny.
I’d still like to see some options for more monster density though, since it’s fun as well as rewarding. So how about enabling it through the otherwise-useless Story Mode? That old style of gameplay is almost entirely ignored by RoS beta testers, aside from playing through Act Five once after each realm wipe, since it’s required before you can start Adventure Mode. In Story Mode you’re giving up the open world and the ability to hop between acts, and you have to play in sequence and do all the quests and such. So why not make that the price you pay for super EXP gain potential? Once you’re level 70, why can’t Story Mode be as thick with monsters as the live game is now? There’s no other reason to play Story Mode, after all.
I’d offer more suggestions and debate, but this is overlong already and besides, the RoS patch is looming. The devs must be aware of the EXP gain issues as fans have been raising them for weeks, and I’m curious to see what kind of fix they put in. They could add new game modes, add more exp items, boost density in Story Mode… or change nothing except boosting the exp value per monster, or adding a bigger multiplier on higher difficulty levels.
There are lots of ways to deal with the problem, and it just remains to be seen how the devs choose to attack it. What do you guys think should be done, if anything? Will you miss EXP gain, or monster density, or both?
Update: I did another trial the next day. Same Monk, but with better gear for killing. Played about the same time (maybe 75m) but on Master instead of Hard, with a Ruby in my helm, 3 items of Cain’s set, and a HR and Leoric’s Signet on my merc. Total +exp% rate was 304%. (The bonus is just x 1.0, since only NV and multiplayer multiply it, and no NV in RoS.)
In that time I did all act 1 bounties plus a rift, plus full clears of a couple of the (formerly) best farming areas in Act 1, and my total exp take was… about 19m. Bit more than I got playing on Hard and just hopping bounties, but I think all the diff was just from more +exp gear, so the higher difficulty (+200% vs. +75% exp) made no difference compared to the slower clear speed it created.
Achieving substantially faster exp gain in RoS would therefore require much better gear and multiplayer games. Which is largely true of D3 also, but the lesser exp gain rate is pretty obvious at this point.