On the Drawing Board #3: Death

Posted 2nd Oct 2008 01:19 PM by Flux

The theme for this week’s column was (for a change) not taken from the D3 Suggestions Forum, but from a forum post by Blizzard’s D3 Community Manager Bashiok. In that post he explained specifically how player deaths are now handled in Diablo III.

Blizzard Quote:
...we’ve found that a check point system works really well. Throughout your adventures, and generally at the ends of each “floor” of a dungeon your character is saved to a checkpoint. When you die you’re dropped back at the last checkpoint with a small amount of health, and the rest regenerates slowly. It’s obviously a very forgiving system as it is. It’s just too early to put a ton of thought in to what penalties there should be, if any, added on top of it.

Potential penalties aside, this is the death mechanic we’re currently using and it’s working really well so far.

This revelation set off a storm of player discussion that made one thing very clear—there’s no consensus among players about how death should be handled in D3. Well, there is one thing everyone seems to agree on; Hardcore is a necessary option.  In Hardcore, death is forever; characters can only die once, and when they do, they stay dead; a dead HC character can not be played again, can’t access their items or stash, etc. This option allows for players who feel death should come with heavy penalties, to vote with their feet. If there’s no HC mode, players who want a harder, more challenging, less forgiving game will forever be clashing with the more mainstream softcore players. (Fortunately, while HC has not yet been confirmed, from what the D3 Team has said it seems virtually certain they’ll include it.)

When it comes to death for non-Hardcore characters, everyone seems to have their own theory. The D3 Team’s current approach is to inflict a very minimal punishment, a strategy that some players wholeheartedly agree with, and that others strongly object to. It’s a complicated issue, since death, and the potential death penalties, are not the whole story. The real key is how often players will die, and how the D3 Team wants deaths to affect the flow of action in the game. Bashiok addressed game flow issue in his initial post:

[BLUE=“http://www.diii.net/n/696684/bashiok-on-death-penalties”]Before I get in to what we are doing let me go over some things we want to avoid with a death mechanic.

We want to separate being in town and being out on a quest/adventure/dungeon as much as possible. Leaving the safety of a town should not be a decision you take lightly. We don’t want to remove the sense of suspense and danger by making town something you’re always going back to pretty much whenever you like. The intent is to create a greater separation from being in town, and not, and to make your time away from town a lot more tense.

On that same note we also don’t want to remove the player from the action. Throwing them back to town for every death really breaks up the action, and not in a fun, interesting, or necessary way.[/BLUE]
Clearly, the design goal for the D3 Team is to minimize death penalties, especially in terms of time loss, since their goal is to keep party games flowing smoothly. They want players who die to be able to get right back into the action, and with that as their design objective, the “resurrect at a checkpoint” system is only logical.

That D3 is party-friendly is not going to change, since that’s clearly one of the core values of the game. It’s supported by features such as individual drops for each player, no PKing, shared healing from health globes, the upcoming enhanced friend list features on Battle.net 2.0, etc. In that light, whatever death penalties we see in the final game, they are never going to be terribly time-consuming or annoying. Dying might become costlier than it is now, but the penalties will never add hurdles or obstacles to getting right back into the party play, with your equipment back on, your spells ready to use, etc.

Furthermore, D3 lead Jay Wilson has “guaranteed” that there will not be experience loss upon death. It’s not clear if that rules out suggestions such as a penalty to exp gain for X number of monster kills after each death, but since technically that is an experience loss (if only vs. the potential exp gain) it seems like something Jay Wilson would oppose. We won’t know for sure until much further along in the game development cycle, though.

So, if there aren’t going to be inconveniences/time loss penalties, and there aren’t going to be experience loss penalties, what does that leave? Gold loss? Players have made many other suggestions, such as penalties to various game rewards for some time after each death. In addition to reduced experience gain, players have suggested penalties to magic find or gold find, temporarily reduced maximum hit points or mana/stamina/whatever. There’s no telling if the D3 Team is considering any of these, at this point. In fact, as Bashiok’s post mentioned, they’re not really worrying about the nitty gritty details of death penalties yet; they’re just working on the basic mechanic of restarting after a death, and they’ve found the checkpoint system a good one, thus far.


Why death penalties?
It’s a necessary question; if the death penalties are going to be so slight, why have them at all? The usual argument against that is a functional one. If there aren’t any penalties for dying, players will play very differently. For one thing, party play and cooperation will go out the window, at least for powerful characters who don’t really need other players around.

For example, I played only HC on US East during the early days of D2C. When D2X was drawing near, and word came that the entire US West realm was going to be duplicated to the beta server, I started up a SC Bowazon on US West so I could take her immediately into act 5 when the D2X beta began. Predictably, after nearly a hear of hardcore play, I was shocked at how people played (and died, and died, and died) in the public softcore games I leveled up in. I saw zero team work, constant PKing just for the hell of it, incredibly reckless play, total disregard for resistances or hit points, mad rushing through every area since higher experience could be had later, etc. It was worse in normal difficulty games, where there were zero death penalties, but even when I got into nightmare and hell, it wasn’t much different.

The party play dynamic that was quite common in hardcore games was non-existent in softcore; not because the characters were stronger and didn’t need help (quite the contrary—SC chars were usually a lot weaker since they didn’t bother to maximize their equipment quality), but because there was no sting to death. I repeatedly saw Whirlwind Barbarians flying through the Chaos Sanctuary with no regard for Iron Maiden curses. They’d join a game, portal to the River of Flame, race to the Chaos Sanctuary, and start spinning. Eventually they’d get IM’ed and die, but they got lucky on which curses hit them, they could clear out half or two-thirds of the area first, racking up the best experience and potential item drops in the game. When they did eventually get IMed and drop dead, they simply exited and joined another game, where they found their corpse in town, and repeated the whole scenario.

In that case at least, the lack of harsh death penalties ruined any chance of co-op play in what was the most challenging, most party-dependent area in the entire game. I’d had countless very fun party games clearing out the Hell difficulty River of Flame and Chaos Sanctuary with my HC characters, usually playing a bowazon while a Paladin or other melee characters stuck close behind me, assisting with Auras and Warcries and waiting their chance to join the fray on screens when no Oblivion Knights were in range. That simply did not exist in softcore.

There’s also a fair amount of anecdotal evidence that games without death penalties encourage a “glass cannon” type of character design. (Titan Quest is often cited on this front.) After all, if dying doesn’t matter, then it’s only logical to build your characters to kill as quickly as possible, without much regard to your own survival. Go as fast as you can, reap the quick rewards, and if you die just create a new game and repeat.


Living Rewards
The alternative to death penalties is to reward characters for not dying. These have been popular player suggestions since long before D3 was announced, but we’ve got no idea if the D3 Team is aware of the concept, or would seriously consider it for D3. It’s something we’ll be sure to ask about at Blizzcon.

Wat’s a living reward? (It sounds like a life insurance company you’d see advertised in a late night infomercial.)  It’s simply a reward or bonus of some type that a character would achieve for not dying. Rather than subtracting from characters who do die, this concept rewards characters who do not. How the time alive is measured is open to debate: number of monster kills, amount of experience gained, number of dungeon levels survived, amount of time elapsed, consecutive games played, etc. Such rewards must be balanced so as not to over-reward back row characters, or players who are extremely cautious, or characters who slum in lower difficulty games, but the theory is viable.

The types of bonuses could be almost anything. Common suggestions are boosts to experience gain, increases to magic or gold find, bonuses to total items found, and many more. The duration of these bonuses is open to debate as well; some players say they should be permanent (until your character dies and loses them), others think they should be short term or periodic. Imagine gaining a shrine-like bonus effect (of whatever type) that lasted for 2 minutes, every time you killed 100 monsters (within some reasonable +/- range of your own level) without dying?  Or seeing every 500th normal monster drop like a boss, or ever 5000th drop like an act boss?

Would that sort of thing entice players to play reasonably, to party and cooperate, and to try to stay alive? Would it encourage that more than a harsh death penalty? Would these sorts of rewards be unfair, since some characters would necessarily be better at killing faster, or surviving more damage?


Conclusion
The issue of death penalties (or life rewards) issue is a complicated one, and not just because the game is still under development. These penalties do not exist in a vacuum. They have to be considered in terms of the D3 Team’s design goals (fast paced party PvM play), how they will (or will not) impact play styles and character builds, what the alternatives are, how the overall game difficulty is balanced, and more. What do you guys think?



On the Drawing Board is written by Flux. These articles examine crucial game design issues and decisions in Diablo 3 by explaining the issue and presenting arguments for and against. On the Drawing Board aims to spur debate and further the conversation, rather than converting readers to one side or the other. Conversation and disagreement is encouraged. Have your say in the comments, or contact the author directly. Suggestions for future column topics are welcomed.




Bookmark and Share
Filed under: On the Drawing Board

Comments

Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 >
Knight_Wolf
Posted 02, Oct 2008 03:15 PM
(0)
 

Great article, and good work on covering all sides of the argument ^_^

I’m more on the side of ( surviving/life rewards ), the D2 penalty thing is so old school and broken ( not to mention a waste of time ), and if there has to be some sort of penalty ( aside from the surviving rewards ) it could be a "Gold" or "EXP" penalty, let me explain more ^_^


How the Reward system works:
——————————————
-You kill "x" number of monsters to build up the bonus, the more you kill the more you build up the bonus ( from 0% to 10% to 20% ... and i think it should be capped at some level but that’s related to balance ), the bonus will affect the EXP gain from monsters and the item drops rate increasing it.

Benefits:-

1-Less reasons to do Boss runs ( which Blizz stated they hate ), now fighting all the monsters in the level/chapter will give you better items and EXP from the bosses.

2-Gives a sense of a penalty when the player dies ( bonus you have been building up resets back to 0%), but without breaking the flow of action.


In the light of that Reward system ... how can a penalty system work in conjunction with it:
————————————————————————————————————

-When the character dies and gets resurrected at the last check point with low HP and ready to fight again you also get another reduction.

-No, not a reduction to your gold ( unless gold has some value ) or EXP, but a reduction to your EXP gain from every kill and a lower drop item drop rate ... gasps

-So how to return it to normal, simple, by fighting ... just like you gain the reward bonus you will need to raise you EXP and item drop rate from its "Minus Value" to "Normal"  ( or even to a "Plus Value" which is the bonus reward i talked about above )

————————————————————————————————-

So with that we would have a penalty and reward system all in one, and it is not time wasting or frustrating in any way, more importantly it gives the player a strong reason to keep fighting and avoid death to reap the rewards of survival, and this will apply to all character since Blizz clearly indicated that all the classes are DPS classes, all designed for combat and damage dealing.

How about that !!?

Reply
 
Leord
Posted 02, Oct 2008 03:29 PM
(0)
 

Ooh, that is a very good system, it doesn’t have many drawbacks, and mostly advantages!

It should either be “login time insensitive”, or short time though to reach cap.

Meaning, that the accumulated bonus won’t reset with logoff, only at deaths, or that you’d only have a short time to reach the cap.

Reply
 
nasarius
Posted 02, Oct 2008 04:12 PM
(0)
 

I’m almost on board with that, but I really don’t like the idea of XP penalties, unless you put a hard cap at maybe -5%. Any more than that is just too much discouragement. Then use a soft cap for bonuses, so each 0.1% increment takes exponentially more effort to gain. So if you’ve got a hardcore character who’s played through every act on every level of difficulty, maybe they have a permanent bonus of 70% or so.

Reply
 
stillman
Posted 02, Oct 2008 04:42 PM
(0)
 

That all sounds good, but there is this other problem: it’s not really death, is it? As someone noted elsewhere, the checkpoint system sounds more like teleport. It’s exactly as though you get teleported to safety just before your hit points go down to zero. Exactly the same.

"So what’s the probelm?", you might ask. Well…how to explain this…have you seen Groundhog Day with Bill Murray? He kills himself many times in many ways but he keeps waking up at 7:00 am on Groundhog Day, which we can consider as his "checkpoint". The toaster he droped in his bathtub didn’t matter, just like lightning enchanted bosses won’t matter in d3. We will be immune to everything. Is everyone in softcore condemed to becoming Bill Murray?

He got pretty depressed about it in the movie. His life was so boring, and nothing mattered. He would do these experiments, you see. He would try to win the heart of his love interest in the movie by approaching her, trying a line or two, and memorizing the failed result so he could get that part right the next day. And since he had unlimited Groundhog days, all he had to do was keep repeating this until he got further and further into a relationship with her. Well this is what a bunch of losers will do in d3. They’ll get killed by Act End boss, try again with the lore of what went wrong, and then die again after getting 30 seconds further into the boss fight than the first time. They’ll repeat this sequence over and over until enough seconds of progress are added such that the boss is defeated.

It doesn’t sound like much glory if we get to take out a boss who KO’d us 20 times, but apparently, our one KO against the boss is the heroic one that counts. So actually, now I’m thinking d3 is more like boxing. The guy doesn’t kill you, he just beats you down to low hit points and he gets dragged away to his corner by the referee (Blizzzard).
Then you say "I demand a remach!", and just keep rematching untill Mr. T goes down.

So actually, it’s kind of like Bill and Ted’s Bogus Journey where Death keeps saying "Best three out of five!" every time he loses.

Here’s how I would like to see it happen: you die in d3 and you are forced to watch a little 1.5 minute cinematic of Tyreal showing up to res your broken body, then he explains the bonus you won’t be getting anymore due to your suckiness and recklessness, and he dumps your humble toon at the checkpoint. So all goes as described in the first couple of posts, but there is the punishment of having to watch a video you can’t skip which you’ve seen a thousand times. Yes, it wastes time.

What’s so wrong with the time wasting penalty anyway? IMO, taking away the time wasting penalty falls into the category of "dumbing the game down" which helped spoil d2 in some ways. It’s going to lead to sloppy lazy playing, and maybe even punishment of those who play carefully in softcore since careful players will fall behind on the ladder which is filled up with sloppy style players.

Reply
 
Morannon
Posted 02, Oct 2008 04:49 PM
(0)
 

I like your suggesion Knight_wolf. But there was one aspect you didn’t cover as clearly: What happens to the bonus when you exit a game. From what you wrote about the system’s benefits I take it you want the bonus to reset to 0% when that happens. If so I agree. It would help discourage reckless playing by making frequent use of save&exit an inefficient gaming style.

Reply
 
Leord
Posted 02, Oct 2008 05:51 PM
(0)
 

stillman, you’re overcomplicating this and putting a worst case scenario. Look at WoW, for the game that it is, it has a very balanced death penalty. You lose time, but you’re not discouraged from continue playing.

I’d imagine this, with Knigh_Wolf’s suggestion to be that you have an level, much like a full act in D2, where you have 2-3 checkpoints, liek a graveyard in WoW.

You play for 4 hours, and get a +4% experience and loot cumulative bonus. Get killed, and get ported back almost as far as the town would have been in D2, and you’d probably have about the same amount of travel time as well. You just lost your 4 hours worth of gaining that bonus.

I would be against a penalty though. Just keep it at bonuses and removed bonuses. It would be easy just to make the first X kills, or X hours, whatever they measure at, give much more, so you’d effectively lose a noticeable amount on every death. Also, someone getting 20% more exp than others due to lack of death will level a lot faster than others, so it will be in your interest to make sure you never die.

If you DO die, it’s a bummer, but not impossible to regain.

Possibly the first 1 hour active playing ("active" could be "be in vicinity of a monster") would give as much as 10% on its own, and let the bonus be significantly slower increased after that. That means that every death has a meaning, and you don’t want to die, but you’re not really penalised, just losing your bonus.

It’s a powerful tool, WoW uses similar mechanics for "rested" bonus. Instead of penalties of playing too much, you get a bonus if you don’t play as much as your friends. not enough to offset the difference, but close enough.

Reply
 
theds
Posted 02, Oct 2008 05:59 PM
(0)
 

I also like Knight Wolf’s suggestion, except I don’t see the point of a penalty like he describes. How is a range of -10 to +20 starting at 0 substantially different from a range of 0 to +30 starting at +10?

I think it would just be better to make it take longer for the bonus to start accruing if it got reset by death than to start it at some arbitrary zero-point.

Reply
 
happyfamine
Posted 02, Oct 2008 08:07 PM
(0)
 

i’m really against the living rewards ideas. sanctuary is supposed to be a harsh place. living should be its own reward.

i would ditch the checkpoints but bring back resurrection scrolls. if you die, someone can resurrect you with no penalty (maybe have the spell be more like a ritual - the caster is occupied by it for a while, praying or waving their hands - something class specific) and you come back with 25% health. if no one will resurrect you, or if you are soloing, you drop your gold and are exited from the game, unable to rejoin. no xp penalty.

this would encourage team play but not be overly harsh, imo. i only intend to play hardcore, but if they for some reason didn’t include hardcore this is a system i would enjoy.

Reply
 
Paalt
Posted 02, Oct 2008 08:55 PM
(0)
 

Seems most people is worried about reckless play due to the lack of "sting of death". Just want to add the the monster AI can help prevent this too. If you have smart monsters that also take advantage of terrain. E.g skeleton archers on a platform shooting arrows at you, and the only access to the platform is trough a ladder guarded by heavy melee monsters. If you can force the player to think strategic with smart level design and monsters that has other properties than "cannonfodder", you will have to play good, or you cannot progress the game. You just hit the wall. Remember that monsters in D2 did not have much of AI. They knew only find target and attack. The lack of AI was substituted by massive damage. I think D2 monsters encourages reckless play because engaging them always result in a clickfest and the combat strategies is down to swapping skills and move position. I think that if the combat system is somewhat more tactical and strategic focused in D3 , then deathpenalty wont really be a issue. Whatever it is.

Reply
 
Turin">Turin
Posted 02, Oct 2008 09:04 PM
(0)
 

"Well this is what a bunch of losers will do in d3. They’ll get killed by Act End boss, try again with the lore of what went wrong, and then die again after getting 30 seconds further into the boss fight than the first time. They’ll repeat this sequence over and over until enough seconds of progress are added such that the boss is defeated."

@Stillman:
What you here describe is the essence of "learning". Sorry, I don’t wanna flame, but it’s hard not to if you seem so blind to the way games are played. How does that fit with "a bunch of loosers".
How exactly do YOU play games? Die at the endboss and then ... what? Quit the game? Look up the tactic on a website? Cheat?

It is what Boss-Encounters are all about - go there, die, try again and use that knowledge you got to beat the obstacle.

This "Movie"-Timewaste-Punish-Idea is something I think would just kill the game wink.


I really like the idea of Living rewards, but they have to be extremely minor or it is more rewarding to build your char to live long enough and kill enough monsters in area XYZ then to literally just "play" the game. But the huge question here is how Blizzard will design it anyway. They said often enough they want to change the "endgame" like it was in D2 - we’ll have to wait to see how.


What every comment here doesn’t mention is the difference in survivability between classes. Its the nature of the different classes that some are weaker (but do more damage or have better usabilty) and other stronger. Should a Barbarian gets less XP-Bonus then a Caster (whatever they introduce here). Or a Witch doctor more then a Barbarian, because he can shield himself with minions?

Is this self-balanced, as the Melee-Classes are most time stronger in the beginning of the game (and therefore get there more often/better live-rewards) and the caster can shine at the end (and therefore get these rewards there), with their most destructive AE-Spells then maximized?

I like the ideas, but I think it is way to early to discuss this, as it affects nearly every other component of the game and we don’t know most of them yet (as Flux correctly mentioned in the article).

@Flux: Great article smile

Reply
 
Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 >

Syndicate