On the Drawing Board #15: Higher Level Skills

Posted 29th Jul 2009 01:47 PM by Flux

In most computer RPGs, including Diablo and Diablo 2, low level spells/skills (ones your character can use starting at level 1, or 5, etc) are generally less powerful than high level skills (ones you have to wait until level 20, or 30, or 50, etc) to start using.  I’d never thought of this as a particularly contentious issue, and in fact it seemed fairly justified to me. If I’ve got to play hours and hours before I can start using a skill, I expect that skill to do more than does a skill Ic could use the moment I first wandered out of the Rogue Encampment.

Though I’d never really thought about it, I figured almost everyone agreed on this, an assumption I had to rethink after reading the comments to this news post, in which first Bashiok, then me, defended the Witch Doctor’s Plague of Toads skill. I said that not every player would like every skill, and that perhaps Plague of Toads (PoT?) wasn’t meant to be the one you took down act bosses with, but that it was very viable early on, and a lot of fun to use. That wasn’t good enough for some fans, who disagreed with the entire design concept. They wanted every skill to be useful throughout the entire game, and thought it was a mark of poor design and balance if a skill became non-viable in the late game.

Spurred by that earlier debate, this installment of On the Drawing Board examines the issue of skill design and long term viability. Click through to see a list of the key issues to consider, then hop to the comments to join in the discussion.

For instance, here’s Red Beard Neo:

I don’t have a problem with respeccing per se.  My problem lies in using it as an excuse not to balance the skills.  A level 50 skill should do more than a level 1, true, but forcing players to cannibalize their lower-level skills is just sloppy.  It reeks of Firebolt and Spirit Wolves and Bash (oh my!).”

The D2 team’s reply to this would be something like:

But the skills are balanced. Firebolt and Spirit Wolves and Bash are exactly as powerful as they’re meant to be. They are supposed to be much less powerful than higher level skills. Their long term weakness is a feature, not a bug.

Those are two sides of the coin, but this question is more like a dice roll, with more than two possible answers.  Here are some of the issues to consider.

D2’s Skill Balance

The importance of skills in D2 has evolved over time, largely because most players now focus entirely on the end game, rather than on the leveling up process. During development and then into the early days of D2C, rushing was rare, twinks were nonesistent, the exp-boost from playing in large parties was not as great, and players didn’t think so far ahead. A Clvl 12 or 18 skill that improved on a Clvl 6 skill was cause for celebration, and saving all your points for level 24 or 30 skills seemed crazy.

Since then the overall focus of players has changed quite a bit, as have the skills. Lower level skills have been upgraded in patches, making them more viable long term. Synergies made a huge difference as well, turning some formerly useless low level skills into point sinks that must be utilized to make the higher level skills properly functional. As a result there are now more “useful” skills than ever before, even if the use of quite a few is simply for their synergistic function. Or did you think all of those Hammerdins were just big fans of Blessed Aim and Vigor?

Character Build Time

Another issue that’s changed greatly over the course of Diablo 2’s lifespan. The importance and utility of low level skills becomes much more important if it takes a week to get to level 20. If you can reach it in an hour, then those early skills become almost irrelevant, if they don’t remain viable long term. We don’t know much about D3’s level up curve at this point, so it’s impossible to say. I can say that chracters leveled up from 6 to 9 or 10 over the course of the Blizzcon demo, which took somewhere between 15-40 minutes to complete, depending on if you went for a full dungeon clear, played multiplayer, etc. (Play sessions were 20 minutes long on the main show floor, and the D3 Team were surprised how many players made it through the demo-ending Skeleton King in that much time.)

Respecs and “Wasted” Skills

D3 will have skill respecs, of some kind. Details TBD, but the team has committed to allowing some method of reusing spent skill points. In one way, this supports the concept of low level skills being temporary. Make them fun, make them useful, but don’t scale up their power, since players are only going to use them while they can, then recycle those skill points elsewhere. On the other hand, it’s wasted effort for the team to design cool skills if they’re only going to be used for a few levels, early on. And what if players really enjoy a low level skill, but can’t find a way to use it long term since it’s just too weak to be viable?

The importance and necessity of respecs also depends on character build time, and difficulty. Respecs aren’t much needed in D2 these days (though some way to fix accidental misclicks should really have been included), since it’s so quick/easy to level up a character, especially when playing online. This wasn’t always the case, though.

For example, in the early days of D2C, when bows were still bugged on +%ED, leveling up a bowazon was slow, tedious, and hazardous for HC players. Low damage bows, no decent twinks, no charms, leech hard to come by (and underappreciated), etc. At the same time, Jab was grossly overpowered, since weapon speed wasn’t checked, and the moment an amazon got an sort of pike she became an absolute killing machine. It took dedication (in those pre-rushing days) to level up with a bow, when you could put a single point into jab and kill virtually any monster with one hit.

Playing with a bow was faster and safer past level 40 or 50, when your character could use better bows, had more dexterity, had enough mana to keep the skills going, etc. From that end game perspective, the point in Jab was wasted, since you never used it again. But for players who struggled through the leveing up process, that point in Jab, which otherwise would have gone into something like Penetrate, where it would raise your to/hit by an indetectible 1%, was very well spent.

Skill Ranks and Power Equality

Where should additional skill points (ranks) be factored in? (When I refer to high/low skill “level” in this article, I’m referring to the character level a skill can first be used at, not the number of points in a skill. D3 appears to be calling multiple points in a skill, “ranks,” which should help avoid some confusion.)

Should a Clvl 10 skill with 10 points (ranks) in it be more/less/equal in power to a Clvl 30 skill with 2 points (ranks)? Should a Clvl 30 skill at 15th rank be vastly more powerful than a Clvl 10 skill at 15th rank?  This comes down to the design goals, and also depends on function vs. flash.

Function vs. Flash

This relates to how a skill looks, vs. how it functions. Low level skills should have a look that’s equivalent to their function. These can upgrade; think of how high level Charged Bolt looks compared to those pitiful little level 1 sparks, but there should be some correlation. An easy example from Diablo 2 is the Sorceress’ Frozen Orb spell. It looks great, like a Clvl 30 spell should. But imagine if it were a Clvl 1 skill? Even if the damage were nerfed to make it reasonable at that level, it would be ridiculous. The effect of a skill should have some relation to its apparent might.

This brings us back to the original question, about Plague of Toads. It’s a fun spell, but as some commenters pointed out, it’s just a bunch of frogs hopping along. How damaging should it be, with those graphics? There will be more toads at higher ranks, or with the help of Skill Runes, but still… it’s a bunch of toads. Wouldn’t it seem silly if something like Siegebreaker stepped on the amphibian parade, and dropped dead? 

Also, what if the Witch Doctor has higher level summoning skills? Say he’s got something like, Conjure Leviathon, a spell that opens a portal through which flops some some soul-sucking, Cthulhu tentacled monstrosity. Shouldn’t that skill do much more than Plague of Toads?

Skill Growth

Another issue with low level skills improving to match higher level skills; isn’t it boring to use the same skill forever? This isn’t such an issue late in the day, when rushing and twinking and such has taken over, but early on, it’s fun to build up a character and learn new skills as you increase your power. It’s fun to try out new things; different things, and that temptation is hard to resist. This is why most people end up cheating on their GF/BF, after all.

Skill Utility

How many skills should a high level character have to use to succeed? D2 was not well-balanced on this front, since a number of skills were so powerful they were the best option in almost any situation. If D3 is balanced to require more variety, then no skills will be far and away the most powerful, since there will be many situations they aren’t suitable for.

To return once again to the Plague of Toads example; if each toad deals a decent amount of poison damage, but the damage doesn’t stack very well to a single target, the skill will be useless against huge enemies. But if higher ranks add many more toads, and there are situations like this one fairly often in the game, a low-damage skill that hits lots of things at once would be extremely useful.

In my perfect game, different skills do very different things, and successful play requires a character to utilize them all in appropriate situations. The one-skill wonder style of so much of D2X’s PvM is, I think, very poor game design. It rewards time spent hunting (or duping) items and following build guides, and almost entirely eliminates player skill as a meaningful factor.

Synergies and Related Skills

This is a feature in D3 that seems pretty clever. Some of the higher level skills are connect to or are boosted by lower level ones. One easy example is Improved Magic Missile, and skill that does nothing but increase the number of projectiles fired by Magic Missile. MM is a fairly low level Wizard spell, so players who intend to use MM long term can stick in multiple points early on, and then really boost the spell’s power when they start adding points to IMM later on. This synergy-like skill relationship is found in most of Diablo 3’s skill trees, where one (usually passive) skill boosts one or more active skills.

The way this is designed seems wiser than D2X’s synergies, where multiple skills are tied together, greatly reducing build variety and essentially forcing players to max out all the synergistic skills to avoid leaving their primary attack underpowered.

Ultimate Skill Design

While these other issues have to be considered, and how skills are used during the leveling up process is going to be far more important than we jaded D2 experts now realize, the ultimate question for D3’s skill design is determining how they’ll work in the end game. There aren’t just two options, but to simplify the issue, consider whether you want rock/paper/scissors, or something more like pistol/machine gun/rocket launcher. Should the D3 Team’s goal be to make all (or most) skills exactly even? Or should some skills be the strongest, while others remain useful, in some circumstances?

It’s pretty easy to see that there’s no way every skill can be perfectly even; not with so much variety in equipment, monsters, and levels. Plus there’s the difficulty of comparing skills between different characters, and the impossibility of trying to balance for PvP and PvM at the same time.  That said, the goal should be to make most skills useful, if not essential, and to give players a wide variety of skills to use long term, so D3 doesn’t end up entirely filled by cookie cutter, one-skill specialist builds, the way some would argue D2X is now.

How do you want to see skills balanced in D3? How much balance is really desired? And which of the various issues discussed in this article are the most important, in your judgment?



On the Drawing Board is written by Flux. These articles examine crucial game design issues and decisions in Diablo 3 by explaining the issue and presenting arguments for and against. On the Drawing Board aims to spur debate and further the conversation, rather than converting readers to one side or the other. Conversation and disagreement is encouraged. Have your say in the comments, or contact the author directly. Suggestions for future column topics are welcomed.




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Comments

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GuardianHadriel
Posted 29, Jul 2009 03:25 PM
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woaw..tough subject. err.. um.. aha!! no, nevermind…or maybe?! no, forget it.
High level skills should be massive killers but you, even if Only as a barb would need low level skills that cost low fury…
and the skills should have different uses and low level skills should have ‘improvers’ tied to them if any1 wants to use them(high level skills tend to have animations that lure ppl into using them

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Knight_Wolf
Posted 29, Jul 2009 06:48 PM
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My idea about good skill design is that each skill must be useful in more than one situation but also covers a range of options that other skills don’t (and that balance is really hard to achieve .. it’s either all skills have too many similarities or they are different but each has a very limited use)

As for making early skills viable late game .. aside from the good skill design balance late game skills must be a risk and reward matter ... they either have very long cool down/start up ... or they cost lots of mana/fury ... so to fill the gaps or weak points of the powerful skills you need to use many low level skills in order to be able utilize the more powerful ones and use them more strategically .. rather than spam them.


BUT .. a big part of the problem that many might not think of is that it seems many people (usually calling themselves hardcore fans) want to be able to spam powerful skills like there is no tomorrow .. kill all game monsters with one hit even bosses when they reach a high level and max their skills .. in short they don’t want any challenge late game (maybe it hurts their ego .. id don’t know really) ... .. where is the problem in that ... it is in fact disastrous to the game really ... if you want god mode go use some cheats or a mod ... late game skills while must be powerful must also have shortcomings (can’t be spammed, leaves you vulnerable after use, ... etc etc) to them in order to balance the game and allow the low level skills to be used actively and in more interesting ways (which is hopefully what D3 is trying to achieve)


Actually the whole UBER powerful late game skills VS powerful but flawed late game skills is ls kinda like a comparison between story about an all powerful comic book hero with no single flaw or weakness (which can get boring as hell) and a story about a gifted human with powers but with also many weaknesses and perosnal flaws which is indeed far more interesting and dynamic.

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Xiel Soulwraith
Posted 29, Jul 2009 07:09 PM
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Skills are a major part of the Diablo series (no one will argue that one), but some do too much and others do too little. I like the way that the lower level skills are going to have skills later on that improve them—it seems almost to the point of making them like a high-level skill—and keep them viable in sometime near the end-game if not all the way to 100 or wherever the level cap will be.

I personally am a fan of the leveling process. I like seeing my character grow and evolve. I really could care less about getting to the max level and sitting there doing end-game stuff. I hope that the developers make sure that the game isn’t about running as fast as possible to the end-game and leaving the people who like the leveling part in the dirt…

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Tijgertje
Posted 29, Jul 2009 07:19 PM
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if they add the option to respec…
none of this will be a problem

people can put points into the frog spell without fear of ‘wasting’ those skill points. this way those early game skill become useful, and people can switch at some point to the powerful late game skills if they feel those beginner skills dont cut it any more.

edit: and yes… respec should be something expensive. way up to the point where people seriously have to think about doing it or not.
We dont want people to respec before every boss fight / duel

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Shnissigah
Posted 29, Jul 2009 08:20 PM
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i love the idea of adding on to skills… and i couldn’t care less about end-game… it’s the leveling, the creating, part that i love…

as for respecs, i think they should initially be free (for low levels, so you can get the hang of the game) but at some point, should cost experience… think about it: what thing in diablo is more precious than gold, than runes, than items?

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Banehide
Posted 29, Jul 2009 09:16 PM
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I like the idea of a respec function, but the cost should be considerable, I agree.

One way to make it easy for lower level players and harder for your high level guys would be to require your character to essentially buy back the respec’d skill with experience.  So, say, you’re level 10, and you want to reassign as skill, your character would get knocked back to level 9 (experience level) and have to gain all the exp back (with no upgrade reward for reaching level 10 again).  At level 70 or 80, this would take forever, and be a significant deterrent for just doing it willy-nilly.  Or at higher levels, it would cost you 5 levels of exp. to respec.  And you could only do it one respec at a time.  So, you’d have to get back to level 70 before respecing again.

Alternatively, you could do a two for one special.  Burn two skills in a lower level ability to gain one new skill you can put anywhere else.  This is not as “cheap” for the low level guys, but works well at higher levels.

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Paranoidmage
Posted 29, Jul 2009 09:43 PM
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I really liked the way skills worked in Mythos.  Most of the skills could be obtained at fairly low levels, but at higher levels, you could upgrade the skills. 

At the lowest level, I could get a skill that sent a shockwave towards an enemy when I hit the ground.  At a higher level, I could upgrade it with a skill that let me sent out multiple shockwaves. 

I dislike when players have to “max” a skill.  I say this because once a skill is maxed, there is no more upgrading you can do, and you are only leveling up for better attributes and weapons/armour.  The problem is that your skill stays the same at when you are level 100 as it did when you were level 50.  I think passive skill that add bonuses to skills are a very good idea.  That way, a skill is never maxed because there are many combinations of passive skills that can be used and with different points in each one.  The builds could then vary a lot, even though that same skill is used by several players. 

I think most active skills should be available at a low level, but only become powerful enough a the player invests in that skill, and other passives that help it.

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Banehide
Posted 29, Jul 2009 10:02 PM
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It would be very interesting to see skills that get innately better as your character levels up…

That is not to say that skill points should become obsolete, but if you have a point in, say, fire bolt, while adding more points to it would significantly improve its damage, if you never added additional skill points to it after level 1, the the spell should do more (relative) damage when cast by a level 99 character - because the wizard is just so much more experienced. 

Like a 0.5% or 0.25% damage bonus every level or something (an intrinsic passive ability booster).

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red_beard_neo">red_beard_neo
Posted 29, Jul 2009 10:53 PM
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The D2 team’s reply to this would be something like: “But the skills are balanced. Firebolt and Spirit Wolves and Bash are exactly as powerful as they’re meant to be. They are supposed to be much less powerful than higher level skills. Their long term weakness is a feature, not a bug.”

You have no idea how hard I laughed at that.  It IS exactly what they’d say!

The function vs flash depends a lot on personal taste.  For example, I’ve always thought Necros look infinitely cooler chucking a bone spear than unleashing an undead Pac-Man to gobble up the enemies.  But that’s just me.

I think part of the problem with D2’s balance is the availability of essentially infinite mana, whether through potions, leech, mana-per-kill, etc.  The game is balanced around the assumption that there’s no need for a skill that uses 5 mana when you can chain-cast the one that costs 40 mana.  I’m hoping the globe system will mitigate that idea somewhat by requiring more mana conservation, meaning you won’t be able to chain-cast the biggest spells.  To use your example, summoning Leviathan would consume enough mana that you’d need to rely on toads for a while until a few globes popped up.  The big guy should do more damage than the toads, sure, but when the toads are what you have left, well, you’d better hope they can do something…

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Turin">Turin
Posted 29, Jul 2009 11:13 PM
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I’m totally for the idea Knight_Wolf already mentioned:

Make Highlevel-Skills something special in terms of usage. It can be screenshaking fantastic and strong, but if you can do it only once every 30 seconds, then you still need something for the 29 seconds cooldown-time. Of course this is very WoW-style, but well, if something works its always worth implementing it. Something else could be a combination system of skills, so you use some lowlevel skills which power up your highlevel skill and only then use it. This would increase tactics for playstyle and also makes lowlevel skills useful and introduce a cooldown for highlevel-skills.

This also keeps their “Awesome”-factor high for a longer time, because you don’t spam the spell like it is in D2, but use it on purpose and therefore pay far more attention to it.

Of course it should be variable (at least to some degree like same spell/skillschool) which lowlevel skills you use to “load up” your highlevel skills, so player can use what they like best.

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