Mad Prophecies #2: Defensive Skills

Posted 30th May 2009 01:26 PM by Flux

Here’s the second installment of Brother Laz’s new column. In Mad Prophecies #2, Laz continues illuminating D3 design issues by comparisons to his popular D2 Mod, Median XL. Last time Laz talked about the difficulty of using skill design to spur character variety and balance. This time he goes deeper into skill discussion and examines why defensive skills are so hard to make useful, without making them mandatory.  Here’s the start; click through to continue reading:

Mad Prophecies #2: Defensive Skills

Defensive skills. D3 has a lot of those. Horrify, that stun slam and the famous Time Stop, announced a few months after the Median version of it. Gah.

Anyway, many people excitedly exclaim that this means Diablo 3 will surely be hard and therefore you will need all those defensive skills! Maybe the game will finally be a challenge. Maybe parties will be more than parties, but companies of brothers who will take a grenade to save a party member’s life.

Or not. Forget it, most defensive skills will be useless and this is why:

Defensive overkill

You don’t hit the maximum level and neither do you have the best items when you first kill the end boss. That’s when you go into farming mode and start becoming stronger while the monsters don’t. The difficulty curve hits a noticeable peak when you beat Hell for the first time, after which you will probably spend a lot more time farming in an environment that gradually gets easier, thanks to your character’s improvements.

If you put your points into defensive skills to get over this crest, when the game will become easier afterwards those skills become useless. On the contrary, piling on more DMGZ remains useful (at least until you can one-hit kill everything). If you don’t die, you simply don’t need more protection, and not dying gets easier and easier with time.

Even simply getting better at the game can have this effect. Maybe your very first character did need Frozen Armor but now you don’t because you know how to use Teleport.

In Median, I attempted to fix this by implementing a lot of very tough uberquests (currently 28), challenging even the most advanced builds with the most powarful itamses in the game. It worked, but this caused another problem. See below. Respecs would also help, but then all you are doing is working around the problem by allowing people to respec out of their defensive skills…

Oh, and you just don’t need them

We already went over this last time. If you don’t need defensive skills to survive, you should indeed skip them and put your points into offense instead because you’ll still survive and now also kill faster.

In Median, people are just unwilling to invest more than 1 point into any defensive skill that doesn’t explicitly gain a bonus from hard points (only), even if the skill is overpowered when you do max it. The sorceress’ Inner Fire spell is an instant full heal with a cool down timer that goes down with skill level to the point where you can almost spam it at level 30+. This makes you a living goddess. Everyone knows that. Yet nobody maxes it, because you can survive without it and dedicate those points to glassing monsters faster so you can farm faster and get more items and rule the planet.

And this skill does not even directly slow down your kill speed. Skills like Terror, Bone Prison and Howl in LoD and Horrify in D3 are useless because you can play reasonably well without them and they really slow down your kill speed.

But the game will be hard!

Maybe the game will really be hard (like, really hard) without those defensive skills, so you have to use them. At least, that is what the Time Stop sycophants at diii.net think.

Firstly, Blizzard said the difficulty in Diablo 3 will be similar to LoD, which means nonexistent. The other thing is that if people need defensive skills to survive, they will literally need defensive skills, forcing them to get those specific skills or die a painful death. Bye bye build variety. Bye bye newbie who attempts the same strategy as in LoD and gets his face torn off.

Median ended up in this situation, big time. The sorceress in Median only allows you to put points into two elements (+ the general tree, out of five skill trees), and each tree has a noticable tactical bias. Fire is the wtfpwn damage tree. Lightning is more defense oriented, having the powerful Warp Armor and three short ranged attack skills in it. Cold is a tactical crowd control tree due to AoE freeze, Cold Fear which makes monsters run and Ice Elemental minions. Poison is about tactical skill use, but it is also defensive due to some damage reduction in the tree.

The idea was to make different elemental sorceresses actually play differently - fire/cold would be the glass cannon, lightning/poison would be the tank, and hybrids would sit in between. What actually happens is that every viable caster sorc gets either poison or lightning due to the protective spells in it, because the uberquests are too hard to survive without any sort of passive defensive skill. So they pick either tree, max the defensive skill and then spec into fire for the ‘million plus’ Flamestrike or into poison for Diseased Cattle.

Oops.

It is often said that certain skill builds in classic LoD are useless because they don’t do enough damage. By making defensive skills more important, I managed to create the opposite situation: skill builds that are useless because they aren’t defensive enough.


What have we learned today?

Defensive skills are useless for two reasons. One is that they get obsoleted by higher character levels and items, forcing you to either respec out of them or skip them in the first place. The other reason is that if the game is easy, you don’t need them, and if the game is hard, every build is forced to get them, creating a major balance issue.

Either of these issues prevents the other from being fixed. Increasing the difficulty of farming to fix the difficulty drop will probably force people to get defensive skills. Any attempt to make both glass cannons and tank builds viable farmers with different strengths and weaknesses will fail because the difficulty drop after beating the end boss benefits glass cannons more than tanks who will end up with overkill defense, meaning they will either be weaker at farming or overpowered during the normal game.

I doubt there is a solution within the constraints of what is essentially a ‘90s game with a graphical update. The best approach is probably a very hard endgame farming area balanced to require at least one defensive skill, but not all of them. Good luck keeping this balanced while the player keeps finding better items, though…




Mad Prophecies are written by Brother Laz. Opinions expressed in this column are those of the author, and not necessarily Diii.net.


Writers wanted! If you’re interested in writing your own guest articles or other regular features for Diii.net, get in touch with Flux.




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konfeta
Posted 30, May 2009 03:41 PM
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So, the logical question stemming from this article: what do you need to change in the Diablo formula to make defensive skills viable, while keeping the game “Diablo”? It seems to be a design issue.

What fundamental change to the gameplay needs to be done to make the concept of defensive skills as viable alternatives real? Blizzard demonstrated their willingness to do major changes such as attribute auto-assignment and the Orb system.

Perhaps one avenue to pursue is implementation of mechanics that make it impossible for a character to simply annihilate screens worth of enemies on a click. Make glass cannons work, hard, for survival. Ensure that its impossible to rampage through crowds without taking significant damage if you don’t play with tactics.

Some of the ways to do this is to prevent things like percentage life leach, overflow of mana regeneration, etc. No skills, items, or item mods that fundamentally convert a glass cannons’ damage output into automatic survivability.

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Corrupted
Posted 30, May 2009 04:55 PM
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I like how the system is in Hell Unleashed. Granted, it’s a mod made for multiplayer only. You will need to play defensive builds to get past the act bosses and farm them if you want. The glass cannons can however farm the random outside areas and provide firepower versus bosses.
The obvious issue to this is that the glasscannons are not viable for singleplayer. Hence the author made an SP version nerfing the bosses.

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Mikeztarp
Posted 30, May 2009 05:53 PM
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There are nos shades of grey with you Laz, is there? It’s either useless, or mandatory. ^_^ Well, I disagree: there are ways to make defensive skills useful without forcing them on people. What about a system that gives the player a damage bonus if his/her HPs are over a certain percentage, for example? If balanced properly, it would indirectly make defensive skills add to the damage output.

The skills themselves can be used in an offensive manner - I’m thinking for example of the way the Wizard in D3 can combine Slow Time with Wave of Force to throw ennemy missiles back (one might say Slow Time isn’t necessary, but I think it’s more efficient as a combo: you can wait until all their missiles are in range of your Wave to throw all of them back in their faces :p).

On another note, D3 will be quite different from D2 and LoD, so we can’t assume anything about difficulty drops, or monster behavior. And we know that monsters will have more CC than in LoD, so maybe having a defensive skill or two under your belt will be handy if you don’t want watch your character being slaughtered while frozen, trapped or otherwise unable to avoid or counter attacks. It’s just too early to tell.
I think defensive skills are a good thing if implemented cleverly, and can make possible more build diversity.

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Windowlicker
Posted 30, May 2009 06:28 PM
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Well, registered just to say that this article is bullshit.

Diablo 3 is not only Softcore. You’ll need all defensive skills in Hardcore.

Also there will be better PVP so you’ll need defensive skills in order to progress there.

And finally for some players defensive skills have much higher priority. They want their character to be viable in all situations, on all dificulties.

So defensive skills designed for a reason. Not everyone in Diablo 2 or 3 community are brainless zergs with tactic: Keeeel>Keeel>Die>Ress>Run>Keeel Keeel.

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Arhaeus
Posted 30, May 2009 08:46 PM
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Well said Windowlicker. Reading this article I had the impression that Laz didn’t played D2 recently. I only said try to finish D2 on hell without any defensive skill (you can teak your personage with an editor). You will be cut to pieces from the first level. Diablo is a surviving game in a very hostile environment, in which you need all your resources to be victorious. The sorceress players in D2 know how hard is to play with a low defense personage, and to die for 20 times to kill a boss it isn’t much fun…

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James Knight
Posted 30, May 2009 09:23 PM
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Defensive skills are a must in D2. The barb needs his iron skin & natural res., the sorc. will usually always invest in mana shield, the paladin has his Holy S., etc.

Granted not all defensive skills were useful (necro bone armor. Useless if not bone spec., and even then…), but they were generally an asset. I’m aware that +skills nearly obliterated the need to invest in them, but some people simply wish to make the game easier for them.

While glass cannons that one-hit kill everything are indeed overpowered, current D2 is such that this also applies to the players. The first to shoot wins here. Also, the barbarian is only viable in hell given that he has mega-armor (max Iron skin & shout) and good res.

I see how it can be difficult to balance defensive skills, but the issue isn’t cut and dry. There can be a middle ground. Besides, end-game content isn’t of immediate access, and an enemy’s offense doesn’t necessarily need to be purely based on a player’s defense (status effect/special attack type/etc.), and add an additional tactical element which would not necessarily make defensive skills a must, but certainly helpful to have.

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Xodarap
Posted 31, May 2009 03:42 AM
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This article is nothing but errant oversimplification…

Black vs. White: the “moderate range:” there’s absolutely no reason to assume that a game is either “too easy” or “too difficult.”  It’s common, sure (I’m looking at you, Bethesda), but there’s certainly a large range wherein a single good defensive skill makes a big and welcome difference.  Maybe it’s not a total necessity, but then you wind up boiling all skill-based ARPGs into ONE build.  After all, why build anything BUT a Hammerdin if he kills the fastest and farms the best?  It’s a slippery slope that you should know better than to follow.  For every skill, you start asking, “Is there a better farming skill I could take instead?  Is this skill *absolutely* necessary in the endgame?”  But those two questions inevitably lead to only the *most* effective build for one purpose—farming.  And there’s the next problem with your article…


Alts.  Sure, I have a hammerdin.  I hate him and he’s boring and I feel like a tool for being so uncreative.  But my *fun* builds need their loot, so why not magicfind the hell out of my HDin and make him my dealer?  So, once I do that, why do I care how well my Zon can farm?  And there’s the next problem:


Fun!  Different people like different things in their RPGs.  Have you ever seen an all-assassin DnD party?  But why not: they’re SO good at killing!  I like to tank; even solo.  I just get the same RPG-giddy build rush from standing in a crowd of enemies and yawning or grabbing a beer that people like you get from one-shotting a boss.  My favorite character is a holy shield / salvation paladin.  Not only does he shrug at the word “hardcore,” but he shrugs at everything else.  And his uber mace of doom has more than enough magic damage on it to zeal his way through everything, at his leisure.  Well, except for sometimes…


Bosses.  Difficulty in modern ARPGs is not “hard” vs. “easy,” game by game, it’s hard vs. easy minute by minute.  ARPGs “spike” in difficulty (I’m looking at Sacred2 and TQ, here).  You’re wandering along for 99% of the game, and it’s so easy that you barely take notice of the hordes of little enemies jumping on your sword.  But then a boss jumps out and one-shots you.  You run back up to him and he one-shots you again.  Rez a second time, think a little more carefully, and you run up and one-shot HIM.  Good thing you had an offensive build, right?  That’s no fun for me.  I *want* a long, drawn-out fight where I have to utilize several skills, drink 20 potions, and hopefully even discover a tactical weakness.  Of course, there are games like TQ where they screw up both sides of the difficulty matchup.  I tried making a pure defensive build (defense + nature, pure defensive/healing/HP skills), and it still got one-shotted by every boss at every level.  Since the hordes were easy, that game truly made defensive skills worthless; one-shotting the boss was the only way to live, and therefore the most “defensive” way to go.  But this isn’t necessary in a game, and many games have sidestepped it.  The easiest way looks like something they’re putting a lot of thought into for D3:


Parties.  How often do you farm Baal alone?  You don’t, do you?  Crappy treasure for one, and for two, Baal’s a bitch for many builds to solo.  So you always go in with as big a party as you can.  So why do YOU need to be the offensive powerhouse?  The hordes work both ways: sure, you don’t need to go defensive to prevent them from killing you, but you don’t need to go offensive to kill them, either—both build directions wind up as “point, click, kill” for the regular masses.  But if you assume that most people go offensive, there’s no need for everyone to go offensive against the boss.  If your defensive skills are group or aoe oriented, then the group will appreciate them—even if they don’t work on the boss, they’ll make a quicker trip to him (teleports aside).  If your defensiveness is focused on yourself, then your group will appreciate you stepping in to take the hits.  Oh, and if they don’t appreciate you?  Who cares, your HP means you’ve got no problem standing next to that boss when he drops, and you’ll get first pick of the loot!


To me, the most important of these considerations is pure playstyle preference.  I can build my RPG characters with the best of them, but I just *enjoy* defensive characters more.  I love trying to “break” a system to make myself invincible.  Like I said, the rush you get from make a one-shotter and seeing him whoop a final boss is the same rush I get from making a tank and seeing him eat a bag of popcorn at the final boss.  This is Blizzard’s task for balance, but I think they’re quite up to it.

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Krugar
Posted 31, May 2009 05:06 AM
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I think I do understand where Laz is coming from. Fact is defensive skills are pretty much useless in D2 and will probably be in D3 once players better understand the game mechanics. By defensive skills, I don’t think Laz is talking of one point wonders or something that helps you get better resistances (although he still could. Some builds can play naked or go through hell at -60 res all). By defensive skills, I think Laz is talking from the perspective of actually building up yourself around the concept of defensive playstyle.

D2 offers not much of this. And I’m risking D3 will invariably go the same route. The problem is that Diablo is a hack & Slash game. And Hack & Slash games always had a troubled relationship with defensive playstyles. These games promote DPS tactics and any defensive skills are essentially minor investments. A Hach & Slash game that demands high investments on a defensive playstyle is really no longer a Hack & Slash… it will lack the fast pace, the satisfaction of mass murder and will force the player into too much tactical thinking when battling monsters which is what you’d expect on a RPG, not an ARPG.

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Doctrinaire
Posted 31, May 2009 05:31 AM
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This article is pretty negligent. Hardcore mode, Hell and Nightmare mode, and multiplayer mode in general go mostly unmentioned. The variety of builds that define a game like Diablo go unmentioned. That min-maxing is rarely a priority more than once (after making a farming character) goes unmentioned. Most importantly, Laz doesn’t mention that Blizzard might feasibly succeed with a new engine and with one of the best design teams in the world where an amateur using 9 year old technology did not.

Defensive skills might mean the difference between methodical, clean playing - the kind that Hardcore mode demands and some players just prefer - and reckless albeit efficient playing. That is one possibility. It’s also possible that certain offensive skills will synergize with defensive ones better than others and that, say, Wizard Build A will get by just fine without them when Wizard Build B would get absolutely wrecked. Perhaps defensive skills will be a necessity for Hell mode solo play while allowing glass cannon builds to still tag along in multiplayer. These are all feasible outcomes.

Krugar,

“And Hack & Slash games always had a troubled relationship with defensive playstyles.”

We are talking about defensive skills, here. Investing in a defensive skill to be used as needed is different from a “defensive play style”.

And the Diablo series is not a stranger to defense. If you ever used a doorway in Diablo II to pick off monsters one at a time rather than en masse you were using defense. Same with utilizing a Necro’s summons as cover from enemy ranged attacks or a Barbarian’s leap to escape a compromised position. It has nothing to do with tactical thinking - whatever that would even be in game like this - and doesn’t need to slow the pace.

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TheGarden
Posted 31, May 2009 07:36 AM
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Can’t deny that Laz addresses some quite solid issues, but again his problem is that he always assumes too much.
First, as a few other people pointed out, D3 is still a work in progress and anything is possible. The Blizzard development team aren’t dummies. You’d of course say that D2 is full of bugs, but that can be blamed to the rushed release. That’s evidently not the case with D3, taking their sweet time is their motto. D2 will be nothing compared to it, certainly there’s no comparing Median to D3 either.

Second, not everyone is into hacking/slashing mindlessly, there are people out there that like to plan their few steps ahead and defensive skills are exactly what they’re looking for.
Besides the aesthetics of the skills would be enough reason to use them. Who wouldn’t think that a terrifying apparition floating over your head isn’t cool to see? Or the stun slam to make enemies drop their shields?
Or even the defense/offense hybrid Wall of Zombies? Blocks the way between you and enemies, and deals damage to boot. Heaps cool to watch, adds more VARIETY to the gaming experience.

Variety in Median is selective. Sure, many different enemies, tiered items, new spells, but for that last one you only get to pick two trees (+ the general one) in certain classes. Killed half the character customisation there. Whatever happened to variety? For the entire run (Normal/Nightmare/Hell) of your character you’ll have the same ol limited skill selection = boring. You could stick with the two-trees thing but also allow a single point to skills from other trees, just for that extra tidbit of variety, but noooo that would go up against your philosophy…..whatever THAT is.

Dude, D2 (and by association Median) is so 6-10 years ago. D3 is an completely revamped environment. Get with the program.
And on my final word, I completely disagree with whoever said that you are almost uniquely qualified for this blog, prophecies or whatever, because you clearly are not, too outdated.

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