Diablo III: Stat Points

Posted 7th Jan 2009 07:54 AM by Medievaldragon

Bashiok has come out of his long silence with a new post addressing concerns about characters’ stat points.  Ever since the BlizzCon 2008 playable demo, it became widespread there wouldn’t be stat points customization anymore in Diablo III. However, Bashiok encouraged fans to dismiss the sentiment for there will be new means to customize your character. Not much was revealed here, but sometimes lack of info says quiet a bunch. This raises more questions than answers, but provides hope for fans who are nerdy about building their character’s power output.

Pyramid16 @ USEast: I think a good way for auto stats is build them up depending on what you do with your character. for example if you spend alot of time on low health, vitality goes up or stamina increase from running alot.

Blizzard Quote:
Bashiok: Systems like this are usually a bit too easy to game. That is, once a player figures out how to increase the stat they want through the least amount of effort, they’ll do it.

It can also keep you from changing up the way you play easily. We want to allow some amount of freedom in changing up how you play a single character. If I’ve played my Wizard as a long-range glass cannon the entire game, and then get an amazing end-all item drop that makes me want to switch it up and go as more vitality-heavy battle style Wizard, I’d probably have to reroll. Whereas with our current systems it’s just a matter of building up an item base that supports it.

In addition to all that, it isn’t a system which is very user friendly. It’s somewhat difficult to explain to the player exactly how those systems work. Not too many people are going to go through the entire game not caring and just playing how they want to play, they want to know exactly how to raise the stats they want, and it would be difficult to display or show how you’re progressing outside of getting a point added. Then you’re wondering “how exactly did that point get there and what do I need to do to get another one?”

Not everyone is into strict min-maxing, but almost everyone wants to know how to make a powerful character.

I think keeping some systems nebulous and somewhat unexplained to the player is fine, but something such as stat points, a core progression and “power” system, it should be as straight forward as possible. Especially where fast paced action - not toiling over hidden math and requirements - is the game.

With auto-stats you lose a small amount of customization, true, but gain a lot of freedoms in adding more - and more interesting - customization through other means.

Worm Cans Initialized.

Update: Bashiok replied to several replies further down the thread. To someone who said the different builds possible in D2 provided much of the fun, Bashiok replied:

Blizzard Quote:
Agreed, and we’ll probably surpass them for viable number of character builds. With runes it’s actually kind of scary. Seeing the game in the wild and what people will come up with… eek. But it’s exciting, making a character that almost feels too powerful is pretty damn fun.

And when someone else argued that stat points had to be allocated exactly to optimize very powerful character builds, Bashiok said:

Blizzard Quote:
Ah, so then stat points were just a means to an end then, weren’t they? In almost all cases anyway. They were a requirement to the items, clicking a button to raise a number to a required value. The items and abilities chosen are really what created the character, not figuring out item requirements.

You could argue about it forever if you wanted to. The stat points didn’t make the character, but little extra math problems are fun, but little extra math problems don’t really equate to fun or interesting character building, but I think that math problems are fun and interesting, but ... etc. etc. etc.

And of course all I can attempt to do is assure you that there’s going to be plenty of build potential, plenty of customization, and plenty of math to dive into, if that’s your thing.




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Filed under: Blue Posts, Bashiok

Comments

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Jugalator
Posted 07, Jan 2009 09:49 AM
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Hm. Did anyone ask this guy how this new system supports the past time rather extreme variant builds, and if these can still be made? A melee Wizard with some extra support from the more defensive spells, if you like. These things may sound like niche cases, but they were what gave Diablo II much of its longevity. How are Blizzard supporting these with the new system?

Besides, he implies this new system is to counter “min-maxing”, but this will still happen, but instead through items. Of course players will still twink out their characters through items as usual. How is that less of a problem than this? I’m personally more of the opinion that since this “problem” isn’t really a problem and part of the fun with Diablo, and won’t be solved by removing stats customization, they should instead bring that kind of customization back, for more to play with in the character development.

Wasn’t trying to find optimal ways to play your build on strategy sites part of the fun in Diablo anyway? Yes, it meant exploiting the rules to the max in order to play a warrior Sorceress or a bow Paladin most efficiently, but trying to find these ways was what vitalized the community and the strategy sites around them.

I don’t want that to be left to finding “the right items for the job”. That’s instead dependant on luck and gold and grinding time spent to find items to trade with. Is that more fun than trying to learn how to play a build? Besides, Diablo II already had the trading component and item needs for a build weighed into this equation. It was just balanced against the stat customization as well.

Since this is still such a controversial idea, I think that’s an indication for Blizzard that it’s not a clear cut better idea. Diablo isn’t World of Warcraft, I hope they realize this and don’t try to apply formulae that worked for other games too much without blinking.

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NASE
Posted 07, Jan 2009 10:46 AM
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I’m going to second what Jugalator said.  Stats are very important for some builds and I fear to see them lose their edge with this new system.

And don’t forget, people do math because they want too.  For general pvm, you don’t need to do math.  Just go as you want.  Getting 100 life less isn’t going to break your build if you have a good build and know how to play it. 
Doing the math is only needed for the type of builds Jugalator describes or for high end pvp.  Eventually, that’s just a small percentage of the people playing.

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Mackan
Posted 07, Jan 2009 12:56 PM
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I agree what previous posters said. There should be room for exploiting the rules to the max, so to speak. That’s what makes things fun. Sometimes I wonder how connected developers are to the crowd that play their game. Jay Wilson probably wasn’t the type that built up a strong Sorceress with high vitality in Diablo 2. So far I am not convinced that items and runes to change skills will be the full customization many wants. However, we’ve seen very little of Diablo 3 so far, I guess. This year should reveal basically everything we need to know.

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konfeta
Posted 07, Jan 2009 01:33 PM
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Well, the horsey’s back through Bashiok’s skillful necromancy incantation.

Quick summary - proponents of free stat allocation point out that this is loss of customization and how stats are vital to some builds; apologists of fixed stat allocation point out that stats complemented item/skill builds (meaning that in most cases stats were rarely build deciders), that new skills replace stat focus (such as increasing willpower effect on damage), this eases balancing for Blizzard (focus on itemization), and that all those quirky builds people loved to make are probably buildable regardless because stat requirement for items is gone. Repeat ad nauseum.

Unfortunately, the arguments for both sides rely on information Blizzard never released or extrapolation for meager scraps of information released - the degree of customization and a amount/variety of viable builds is unknown.

Did I miss anything? If not, I cast my vote for auto-stat allocation is totally fine as long as Blizzard keeps up the trend seen in skills, skill runes, and item ideas.

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Galtrovan
Posted 07, Jan 2009 02:44 PM
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As I have said before, my whole problem with auto-stats is that stat point customization is being relegated to item finding.  If I want to create a build that requires a certain stat allocation I don’t want to be required to find all the right stat-items before I can create and play the character.  Finding good weapons and armor is sometimes hard enough.  Finding good weapons and armor that also have x-stat will even be more difficult.  This leaves my being able to create and play my build up to grinding, luck, and trading—with some other character or build.

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Synchrotron
Posted 07, Jan 2009 04:20 PM
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The same old BS telling that they will add more customization in other aspects of the game.

Blizzard messed up with D2’ stat system and now they are afraid to mess up with D3’ system too so they decided to just remove stat customization.

The problem is not in the manual stat distribution but in the effects of each atribute, the energy in D2 is useless because it just raises your mana but in D3 not only energy raises mana but it also adds 0,5% extra spell damage per energy point. A simple measure that would prevent people from making those zero energy sorceress IF D3’ had a manual stat system.

Another Blizzard’s error was creating extremely powerfull stats boosting items like annihilus and torch, why would people be worried about stats builds if they have +40 in all stats?

The only bad thing I see in manual stat system is that its very easy fot the people to make mistakes but that can be easily solved with a respec system (just like D3’ skills will have). They just have to be cautious to prevent the respec system to be used a lot.

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AkumaSlayer
Posted 07, Jan 2009 04:59 PM
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I agree completely with Jugalator (nice post) but I only ever used an “Internet Build” once with my druid. My favorite characters were the ones that I had spent some time researching and looking at skills myself, and they were also alternative builds - like my Melee Sorceress, Dagger Necro, Spellcasting Paladin, etc.

I wonder when can we see the new customizable features? They must be either really special, unfinished or controversial for Blizzard to withhold from us.

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Malefactor
Posted 07, Jan 2009 05:51 PM
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I’m afraid of what it will do to strange builds also.  And items will likely have level requirements instead of stat requirements which kind of throws off the low level/twinking game a little.  I also wonder how much this would effect builds in hardcore mode.  All in all I am for the auto-stat allocation.  I will miss the manual allocation.  But I guess I can fire up D2 and play.

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Galtrovan
Posted 07, Jan 2009 05:58 PM
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Items in D3 do not have stat requirements

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Arlborn
Posted 07, Jan 2009 08:28 PM
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It seems too much like WoW for my liking, but well, we still need to see much of this game before taking strong stands.

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