Diablo III Skill Trees Innovative Overhaul

Posted 12th May 2009 05:44 PM by Medievaldragon

The Skill Trees all attendees of last year’s BlizzCon played around with in the Diablo III demo was merely a prototype or placeholder.  According to Bashiok, the current Diablo III allows you to see all trees at once side-by-side in the same window.  You can distribute points of Tier 1 seamlessly across any of the three skill trees. Once you reach the set limit, you will unlock Tier 2.  It is a very different way to what we are used to in Diablo II and even World of Warcraft.

Bashiok is confident to confirm that this system allows more variety.  What fans do not account for is that there are ways to customize your characters with the new rune system, and there is yet other unrevealed ways to improve your character.  Hopefully these will be revealed in August at Blizzcon 2009.  At the moment it remains a mystery.—source

(The image below is the old skill tree style, from last month. All changed now!)

Blizzard Quote:


Bashiok: As you mentioned and I had said in that rather lengthy post, we’re under heavy iteration. The version shown off with BlizzCast was a prototype in many ways, and a jumping off point in others.


We’re working with a modified skill tree system now of what we showed, under heavy testing and scrutiny. It’s of course not final, the ideas it proposes are something we’re happy with in their direction but they could very well change. In fact I would bet on them continuing to evolve.

So, the system we have now… you’ll have to just picture it without any visual representation, sorry. They’re not radically different visually except that the trees are all viewable at the same time. Taking the barbarian trees for instance (berserker, battlemaster, juggernaut) they’re not tabbed now, but instead all viewable at the same time. Side by side.

This is important due to how they are now a unified tier progression. Instead of spending 5 points in the berserker tree to then begin spending points in the second tier of the berserker tree, the new design allows you to spend wherever you like. As long as your points in the first tier of skills adds up to five, the next tier for all trees is unlocked.

So, I could spend 2 points in Heightened Senses which is a berserker skill, and 3 points in Bash which is a Juggernaut skill, thus adding up to 5 points and granting me access to the second tier of skills for all of the trees. With this amount of freedom you can see how easy it is then to diversify yourself and your build. You’re no longer gaining abilities through investment, but instead more through choice and personal preference.

It certainly diversifies the types and amounts of builds available to players, that’s obvious. This style of a unified tier approach also helps in a few other areas though. Since all of the trees are open we can clean up the trees a lot more, removing redundant abilities. We don’t have to throw in skills that are important, such as damage mitigation, all over the place. You will always have access to those skills no matter where you’re spending, so they can instead be focused into a few key skills. Another way it helps is by allowing players access to the skills they want, and the skills we want them to have. Every barbarian is probably going to want whirlwind. And why not? What this tree style allows for, and one reason we’re pretty keen on it, is that we aren’t saying “You’re a ‘berserker’ barbarian, you can’t have whirlwind”. Instead, you’re a barbarian!, pick the key skills that define you and your character as you want them to be.

One important addition to this is the skill caps themselves. Currently we’re envisioning the majority of skills to be capped at 5 points, to begin with. As a form of progression we’re planning for players to be able to increase the point caps of skills. More than likely to a maximum of 15. It’s a system that’s still under heavy design, but the fact of choosing and increasing key skills beyond their initial cap is important to this new unified tier system.

So, once again these are things that are still under heavy design and iteration. They’re changes we’re testing, and while we like how they play there are certainly issues or flaws that could cause an entire switch to something else.


Update: Bashiok added some more details in a reply:

Blizzard Quote:

if you make it that way then what’s the point in skill trees at all, you could’ve just made one tree with more tiers…

Bashiok: Essentially it is a single tree. The separation does a couple things though. It groups similarly themed abilities, and it provides a nice separation. You can also quickly describe your build to someone else. “Oh I’m a jugger barb with 10/10 WW”

 

and this only encourages cookie cutter builds, cause players will eventually find out what the best skills are (mathematical approach), and exploit it, since they can freely choose the best skills i just don’t see this working, and frankly don’t like it at all…

Bashiok: There will always be cookie cutter builds. There will always be the builds that when coupled with specific items put out the most damage, and players will find them. That’s just a fact. The best we can do is balance to a point where there are as many viable builds as possible. That there isn’t a single end-all-be-all. Or, that there isn’t a build that is required to play the game. That all comes down to balance more than anything.

Regardless, this setup doesn’t make the possibility of cookie cutters existence more or less possible. What it does is potentially makes them more varied though. There’s a much larger possibility for variety here.

Also you’re going to want to still focus on a relatively small amount of abilities as you’re not going to be able to raise, or more importantly spend enough points, to raise all skills to a potential 15 point cap. (remember when I said that was an important part?)

So if you want to be the barbarian that spreads his points all over the place and is sort of jack of all trades, that’s fine. And it should still work. I’ll have my focus-fire barb where I’ve raised the caps on two or three specific skills, and built my entire set of gear, runes, etc. to feed those skills. Someone else may have done something similar but in different trees. Someone else may go the jack of all trades route for variety and survivability. Someone else may want to try a build that doesn’t leave the berserker tree. etc. etc.




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Comments

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Flux
Posted 12, May 2009 07:41 PM
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Lots to bite into here. A few thoughts.

Which skills are on tier one is really the key to how useful this cross-tier stuff is.

Say you want to be a Battlemaster but you don’t like any of the Battlemaster tier 1 skills. Now you can put all of your points into Juggernaut tier 1, and then move right into tier 2, 3, 4, etc in BM. How likely anyone is to do this depends on which skils are where, etc. It seems like this change is only going to be noticeable early on, when you will be able to start using a tier 3 skill at level 10, rather than say, level 13, if you’d put 3 of your early points into another tree.

Update: I should read more closely before I comment. Bashiok says there are no more skill trees. Just one huge skill menu, kinda HGL style, but (apparently) w/o the dependency lines. So if we can all pick our dream skills from any arrangement, will every barb be identical, as the best skills are found? runes to differentiate? can bliz realy make all the skills roughly equivalent in quality?

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Flux
Posted 12, May 2009 07:45 PM
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The bit about differing levels of skill caps? How might those be unlocked?  Clvl? Item bonus?

I initially thought it would be points in a skill tree, rewarding specialization, but on closer read there are no more skill trees… so that can’t be it.

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Medievaldragon
Posted 12, May 2009 08:07 PM
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The possibilities are endless.  With the old system or the WoW system, you are bound to lose certain abilities, or you can be locked out of an ability.  Now this new system adds freedom to expand your character.

In WoW, sometimes when applying points to the Holy Tree, and grabbing a few on the retribution tree, you could lower the cost of mana on some holy spells, but at the cost of losing Blessing of Kings, because you need around 10-15 points in that tree to get Blessing of Kings. You get locked out.

With this new system, you can have that extra ability you want.

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The Lord of Darkness
Posted 12, May 2009 08:19 PM
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Hopefully, they go forward with this idea on the skills trees. It would open up more possibilities as far as builds. It also would utilize the 3 different trees more efficiently compared with Diablo 2 which was a flaw in Diablo 2 in my opinion.

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StormGuy
Posted 13, May 2009 01:01 AM
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I wonder if any + skill items will be tree-specific. This would still give some credence to stacking lower-tier skills in the same tree as ones you want to use in that tree later on: because you’ll get bonuses to all of them. But at the same time, you can hybridize very easily.

This really just offers considerably more options for talents with respect to gear. As your gear adjusts, your “filler” talents will need to be changed. I don’t think a single “uber” build will emerge because there will be obviously better choices in the lower tier of some trees, but that won’t necessarily mesh with your gear at higher levels, so you’ll actually benefit from choosing something that “was” inferior at first but adjusted with your equipment. Very interesting.

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konfeta
Posted 13, May 2009 02:22 AM
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Well, damn. I like the idea, but hot damn.

Why even call them trees at this point?

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Krugar
Posted 13, May 2009 03:14 AM
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@konfeta
Well, there is still a notion of skill requirements. It just shifted from skill-based to point-based. As you spend your points on skills and move across skill tiers you will be building your own skill tree.

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5zigen
Posted 13, May 2009 03:47 AM
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God i hope they don’t let you do “extra investment” in the skills to let you go past the cap…

While specialization is well and good, letting you up your cap for skills to make them more powerful.  I think that will basically mean that the most effective characters will be “one trick ponies” so to speak. 

That is really counter to how I think of “skill” in general.  People who can manage more skills effectively should properly do better than those who rely on spamming the same 1 2 or 3 skills.

I hope they don’t stray from the concept of variety too much, though I am happy about the skill tree system in general.

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TheReadMenace
Posted 13, May 2009 05:59 AM
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It’s an interesting concept.  Like the rest of the game, I don’t want to get super critital about it until I have it in my hands.

Having all the skills on the same page makes me wonder, though.  I’m brainstorming that the rune system have have been big factor behind the switch from tabs to a single page; certain rune placement/arrangement on the tree, maybe in the already established ‘rune word’ style, would add enhancements (synergies) or +skills or whatnot.  I’m just afraid that we’d end up with skill trees that look like a TicTacToe / Bingo / Connect Four board.

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HerlockS
Posted 13, May 2009 06:13 AM
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I like the idea that you don’t have to blow points on skills you’d never use to get to the skills that you actually want. I also think that it would add more replayability to the skills as you’d have reason to try skills you normally may not want to invest pre-req points to get to.

Concerning the synergies, I think Blizz made it quite clear that synergies were a gimmick trying to add more spice to Diablo 2 and that it wasn’t going to be present in Diablo 3. Hope they stick to that…

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