Anyone Want to Unearth the RMAH Debate?
Posted 12 April 2012 by FluxA fan brought up the whole “pay to win” issue of the RMAH, and got a half-hearted reply from Bashiok.
Bashiok: It’s interesting to think about, for sure. There’s certainly a separation for most people in that obtaining currency outside of the game, and obtaining items worth currency within the game are exclusive concepts. That if you’re playing the game and obtaining items, they are of a higher value than having a job and being paid for it. Which is kind of strange as real world currency is by far more widely valuable and usable than an in-game item. Obviously there’s an exchange rate of sorts that will be worked out by players to match the two, but I think it’s interesting that conceptually someone who works to obtain currency in their job and buy an item is perceived of as less than someone who was able to obtain it by playing the game. Logically it’s backwards as a real world job is not the fun and enjoyment of playing a video game, but that gets turned around within the context of wanting to compare skill and aptitude.
I still think drop chance puts so much randomization into someone’s acquisition of items that there’s no true test of aptitude to be had, just luck and time. What’s to say working to earn money to buy an item is easier than launching the game and getting that same item on your first kill? Also, I love my job, but it’s still not as awesome as just playing Diablo III.
I don’t even know how someone can attempt to place value on the way someone obtained their items, at what cost, in what Act and difficulty was it found, what their magic find was, are they more skilled than me, are they using a ‘cheesy build’ etc. There’s too many variables.
In regards to PvP, that gear didn’t just appear out of nowhere. If my opponent bought his gear that doesn’t change the fact that it dropped for someone else somewhere. That gear was going to make someone beefy in PvP regardless of whether it was sold or not so what’s the point? Is it really worse that I fight someone in PvP whom bought all their gear versus fighting the player for whom that gear originally dropped before they sell it? If anything, the person that bought their gear is more likely to be at a disadvantage because they haven’t invested the time to get really good at their skills. Overall I think it’s a moot point.
Bashiok: I like the way this all makes sense inside my brain.
These read like the training wheels versions of this debate, which raged hot, deep, and nuanced last August, after the Auction House and the RMT aspect of it were first revealed. If you’re interested in a bit deeper discussion, click through; I briefly offer counters to the points made in this blue effort, and provide links to some of the better discussions of this topic from last year.
Here’s a quick summary of how the main pro/con RMAH debate points would be applied to the surface-scratching version of the discussion in this blue post.
The Anti-RMAH Argument
Bashiok’s wrong because a game world is not the same as real life. It’s a closed system, where where players are rewarded for their skills and effort in the game, not for having access to their dad’s credit card. That a player can use outside, real world resources to “pay to win” feels like cheating, to many.
An analogy I’ve read is that it’s like sitting down to play Monopoly with some friends, and one guy pulls out actual cash money and hands it to the banker, buying Boardwalk and Park Place right at the start. Though in the case of D3′s RMAH, I suppose it would be more like that guy throwing down a fiver to buy those properties from the other player who had earned them fairly. Fine for him and the seller, but ruinous of the game for everyone else.
The Pro-RMAH Argument
On the other hand, the argument I find most compelling for the RMAH is the time-is-money counter. Since item quality and character level in a game like D3 is determined on an almost one-to-one sliding scale with “time played,” many RMAH supporters point out the inherent unfairness of that system. (Bashiok’s, “You could get lucky and find super items in one drop!” is a logical fallacy.)
Given how the loot in D3 works, there’s simply no way an adult with a job and a family and real life responsibilities can compete with the stereotypical 14 y/o playing 14 hours a day on his summer vacation. So isn’t it “fair” to allow that adult to spend a small % of his real life earnings to buy gear that gives him some parity with the kid who plays all day?
One has the the advantage of time while the other has the equalizer of money. A game economy that finds a way to balance out those resources should be fair for everyone. And the RMAH system in D3 should do that pretty well… in theory.
The above is a very quick summary of two aspects of the argument. Check our RMAH tagged news items from last August for much more, from back when the feature was first revealed and passions ran hot. A few of the better ones include:
- The DiabloWiki has very thorough coverage of this issue in Diablo III and more generally in online games, on the
Real Money Trading article.
- We did a whole podcast debate on the RMAH, with Wolfpaq arguing pro RMAH, and Nico arguing against it. I moderated in my always impartial and fair-minded fashion. *cough*
- Bashiok and other blue voices joined in quite a bit of spirited debate with fans who hated the AH and especially the RMAH. See this post and this one, for example.
- This survey of opinions from other game developers (most of whom were jealous that Bliz could get away with it) stirred some debate.
- If you want a larger sample size, our vote on the RMAH issue had around 5000 replies and wild disagreement in the votes and the comments.
“Given how the loot in D3 works, there’s simply no way an adult with a job and a family and real life responsibilities can compete with the stereotypical 14 y/o playing 14 hours a day on his summer vacation. So isn’t it “fair” to allow that adult to spend a small % of his real life earnings to buy gear that gives him some parity with the kid who plays all day?”
To me this is the most compelling argument, and not just because it applies to me!
Easy fix: have a kid and force him to play all day and give you all his stuff… i call it the medieval method of childrearing…
Of course! Having a kid will save so much time and money. Trust me.
Not having the kid is better. No kid = no costs = more money for RMAH.
I win ;p
sorry dudes, i will adopt an asian child, and hell yeah, he will punsh the **** out of ya pocket with his imba-asian skills, until you can’t remember what a penny looks like!
The way I see it If someone wants to pay for items and skip what I consider to be the entire point of the game then that’s on them. Me I will play the game, find my own items, and will enjoy the game much more for doing so. To me the issue has nothing to do with the RMAH, it has everything to do with being given items. I would not buy a single thing from anyone nor would I take it for free. If I have it I found it. I have no problem with anyone buying from the RMAH nor do I care if they are handed items for free from someone, neither affect me in any way shape or form. If I join a pub game and its filled with people who bought items and are amazing gear then….good for me? this will only mean things die faster which means I get loot faster.
I couldn’t agree more.
Exactly, the most important thing to me is the thrill of the hunt for these items …. not the items themselves.
My favourite way to describe it:
“Now that you’ve found it, its gone … now that you feel it, you don’t” — Radiohead
Yes, i too simply enjoy the pavlovian response more then the actual gameplay…
I think I’ll just work 40 hours a week and play 8 hours a day (15 on weekends?). That leaves me with enough time to sleep. I have no plans to buy any items with the RMAH ever, unless it’s RM I earned by selling items. I don’t think I’ll be too far behind the average 14 y/o, just the good/dedicated ones
Yes, because there won’t be a lot of people playing for 6+ hours daily AND buying the entire RMAH to make them even stronger….
I understand the frustration of people that don’t have much time to play, each year that passes I get more and more busy, preventing me to play so much like in my golden days in high-school, but that doesn’t mean I want a handicap to let me compete with people that have a lot of time to play. Justifying the inclusion of item selling to help busy people is a lame argument, I don’t even know why people try to use it. The inclusion of the RMAH is purely a solution to let Blizzard make more money, period. There’s no such thing as Blizzard is trying to do that because they are nice people, almost like angels, and they are including the item selling only to help busy players to have a chance inside the game.
Also, I don’t even know why people ask Blizzard employees about the problems of the RMAH. Its obviously that they will ALWAYS try to defend the RMAH and say there’s absolutely no problem with it. Even if you point out strong arguments against the RMAH they will just evade your arguments, like they always do.
Well people with all those responsibilites perhaps video gaming is not what they were meant to do. Life isn’t fair, life doesn’t cater to everyone and neither should a video game.
Yes, ppl with responsibilities should not be able to relax…
“Life isn’t fair, life doesn’t cater to everyone and neither should a video game.”
So you’re saying that you’re cool with the RMAH, then?
If you get your ass kicked in PvP by someone who got his gear with money and only played a few hours and you had gear that is just as good that you got from playing for 500 hours then you suck at the game…
As long as there’s no items that are better then what you can get from normal drops there’s little to complain about…
And if you’re one of those people that feels forced to spend money so you can PvP early, then you have bigger problems then a video game…
Heh, “mad science” indeed capcha…
“feels forced to spend money so you can PvP early”
Really big problems I’d say, given that there isn’t even going to be PvP for a while.
“Bashiok’s wrong because a game world is not the same as real life. It’s a closed system, where where players are rewarded for their skills and effort in the game, not for having access to their dad’s credit card. ”
I’m a dad, I got a job, I have skill, I have a credit card. I wont buy stuff on RMAH because it’s not fun. Bashiok is not wrong.
That’s your subjective opinion, daddy. I don’t have time to farm 8 hours a day because I got family and life to attend to. Maybe you’re not spending as much time with them as you should..
What kind of statement is that, Curik? He doesn’t say how much he’ll play or that he is going to farm, just that it isn’t fun to buy items. Way to make baseless value judgements.
Did you even read his comment? Maybe you didn’t understand it. He says the article author is incorrect that Bash is wrong, and then goes on to say he’s got THE SKILLZ and credit card, + kids and whatnot – which has nothing to do with what Bash said, or what the author said.
Bottom line is, you can’t compare D3 economy to a real life economy.. which is what the original statement is about.
Your interpretation of the comment is logical, but it’s far more likely that he was making a response to the immediate part of the comment he quoted, and wasn’t taking the rest into consideration. It really did sound like he was simply saying that he wasn’t going to use the RMAH.
It’s not an issue of your logic here; it’s just that your accusation was really viscous and condescending, and seems to project a lot of the anger surrounding the debate unfairly onto a single, not-that-controversial comment.
@ endarion: That was so well stated. I can’t ever find the words when my brain is scrambled by someone being so dense. I’ll have to follow your model.
“Maybe you’re not spending as much time with them as you should..”
to CURIK :
your argument is irrelevant and disrespectful.
I love it when my comments spur such important debates.
All I wanted to say was that there is nothing wrong with having a feature like RMAH. Yes it’s evil blah blah blah. The bottom line is the game is there for you to have FUN not to run around and brag about how awesome your gear is and how you wasted 3 weeks of your life to get this or get that.
People have lives. If someone wants to spend his cash to get an in game item, LET THEM.
I was 16 when D1 came out. I’m a huge fan of the franchise and intend to play this game a lot. It may take me years to get to inferno. But i will have fun and thats the important part.
PS: That comment about me not spending time with my kid. WTF was that all about?
PPS: capcha – senior citizen. Some times i feel like flux is just ****ing with us.
I think you hit the nail on the head with one particular word in this post: brag. The primary motivation of much of the staunchly anti-RMAH crowd is that they want bragging rights. They want to have items that you don’t have, because their fun is dependent upon putting other people down. I can’t help but think that’s pretty petty.
I think we should set up “daddy’s guild” or sth;)
but what if your not in the: high paying job / less time or no job / lots of time bracket. i work a full time job, i dont have money to or want to buy/cheat items. i want to feel the reward of finding any item and trading it for 1 that suits me. am i going to be completely left behind in this game and find myself un-competitive in pvp unless i play allot more or buy items. at least if there was no real money i would know that guy with better items is better coz he has no life, now pll that are better than me in real life are gona be better than me in diablo3 too =(
It is unhealthy to put a value on being better than someone else at a hobby, in my opinion, and therefore, Blizzard should not design their games based on the premise that one should place a value on it. Of course this is subjective, but if you look at Blizzard’s body of work, they certainly lean towards this type of ethic.
Well, it’s unhealthy to put an *obsession* on being better than other. It’s very normal and healthy to have a value though. That’s simply called “the spirit of competition”, and it’s a main motivating factor for all of society.
A person who does not have any regard for their own output or success in regards to those around them is likely suffering from psychological issues, and is likely not a very happy person on average, since humans are inherently social.
Being social = seeing yourself as better then someone else…
Then again the majority of humans still live in incredibly crappy conditions, so that is about right…
Crudesash you can’t be serious? sport? competitive games? life in general? if Blizzard starts designing games that hav no element of competitiveness they would go bankrupt.
Left behind whom?
Does your enjoyment of Diablo games come from being ahead of other people, or from what you’re able to accomplish on your own?
If their PVP matchmaking system is anything like the matchmaking in SC2 you shouldn’t have to worry too much about being left behind in that regard – not to mention the fact that you’ll have many months post-release to farm PVP items before that system goes live.
“In regards to PvP …”
There is no PvP. I doubt we’ll see PvP before November.
Blizzard, in all their wisdom, intentionally delayed PvP so that everyone would have 6 months to find items so that people buying items from the RMAH wouldn’t have an advantage.
“Anyone Want to Unearth the RMAH Debate?”
…No.
Short and sweet.
I concur with Alex. I won’t buy gear to fill holes in my setup…what I may do, and probably will do, is buy items I can’t find with the funds I earn selling stuff I don’t need, but no real money trading hands…unless, naturally, the prices become so high that it would be impractical not to cash out. If items are selling for a few bucks, it isn’t worth the time and hassle to cash out for a dollar here or there.
Note, this is the opinion of someone who will not be playing the game to try to make money; those who do will find value in every sale.
“Anyone Want to Unearth the RMAH Debate?”
Oh Flux does, for the attention.
This made my morning
Well to be fair, he does need to pay for the site, and it’s obviously bringing ppl out of the woodwork…
Its hidden gambling imo. You play to hit the jackpot then turn that into cash. The only difference is that a poker machine never pays a profit to its users. If you can show me that the money you make from harvesting D3 items to be sold to the masses is more profitable than work then I’m wrong. I don’t see why Blizzard shouldn’t have to pay for a gambling license for development of products that now fit into gaming. I’m not for nor against it, I just believe in calling something what it is.
Oh god not this again…
Some people need to look up the difference between a store and an auction
then they need to take a chill pill
and take a walk
and go to bed
and stay there permanently.