Nephalem Valor System Pros and Cons
Posted 20 December 2012 by FluxFollowing the earlier complaints about Monster Power, here’s a post from a fan who doesn’t like the Nephalem Valor system at all, and wants a return to those Diablo 2 cheese-flavored Pindleskin run type games.
Now, I am realizing that it feels really dumb. It doesn’t feel fun to go out and hunt down Elite packs, just to get 5 stacks of this buff, before you start MFing. I always liked to turn to Diablo when I had 20 minutes before I had to leave the house for work or class, I could get in a couple Mephisto runs and maybe get some quick loot to be excited for when I got home. That is no longer possible, seeing that it will often take 20 minutes just to get your 5 stacks up. Now, a magic find run that could be 5 minutes has turned into 45 minutes. Diablo used to be the contrast to WOW for me, because it was casual, and had immediate gratification, wheras you’d have to dump lots of time to accomplish something in WOW. Now that’s how it feels in Diablo 3.
This post isn’t meant to be a Diablo to WOW comparision, or a casuals vs. hardcore players type of thing. What it comes down to for me is that doing magic find runs for loot (what this whole game is about) feels like it’s too arduous and grindy of a process. I propose you remove Nephalem Valor, and just let us farm where we want and when we want. Up the quality of boss loot, and don’t make us travel all over the world to do a MF run.
Lylirra: Overall, we think Nephalem Valor does a great job at addressing two core needs. First, it helps make sure that extremely short play sessions (i.e. < 1 minute) are not the optimal way to play. Second, there's a lot of value in being able to swap your skills at will and tailor your builds to the environment around you, but there's also gameplay to finding a build that really works for you in a variety of situations -- we like that NV helps balance these two concepts, and allows players to feel like there is some commitment to a skill build without also feeling like they’re locked into that build forever. So, while there are definitely some issues with the current design, we currently think that the pros outweigh the cons of how the game would probably feel if the system were not in place.
That said, you're right -- the system isn't perfect, and we're definitely looking at ways we can do better. Certainly, one of our goals is to allow people to play game sessions that are about 5 to 10 minutes in length and still be rewarded well, but we need to make sure that in the process we don't make rapidly flipping games the go-to method. It's all about striking the right balance for a wide variety of players, and we'll definitely be keeping your feedback in mind (as well as other threads on the topic) as we explore options for how to improve NV.
Maybe this guy is playing on MP9 or something, but 20 minutes to get up 5 stacks is crazy. Fast farmers do entire Alkaizer runs in ~10 minutes, and that entails killing maybe... 25-30 bosses? I've done a million of those runs, usually with a couple of other areas tacked on, but the numbers of bosses vary a lot from game to game, and I've never exactly counted. It's a lot more than 5 at least, and you can usually get that many just in the Keep Level 2, if you start your run at the top. If you start at the bottom you'll get 2 or 3 stacks in the Arreat Core, and be into 5 stacks early in the Arreat Crater level 2.
That aside, this seems like an, "agree to disagree" sort of issue, since as Lylirra points out, the OP's main points are all exactly in contradiction to the stated goals of the NV system. Personally, I think NV works well and I enjoy getting five stacks. I can emphasize with the OP though, since I'm not good at doing fast, discrete runs. Once I have 5 stacks I don't want to stop, which is why my 
Alkaizer Runs tend to include several levels not included in the standard course.
You guys still enjoying NV? Does anyone really want to go back to Pindleskin type runs? We saw those early in D3, when Zoltan Kulle was run like a dog, more for experience and gold than item drops, but if such runs were still very valuable, The devs would have to entirely rework the continuing quests system to stop it. That and/or changing around all of the waypoint locations, etc. Which is another way of saying that it's not going to happen and that might just be bad news for people who only want to play 15m a time and can't get the hang of quick Alkaizer Run.
Additional posts in the same thread, adding some details:
I think you might have misunderstood. We’re saying that’s a goal we want to achieve, that it’s an improvement we want to make as it exists currently.
Also are you just balancing the game around Plvl 100?
No, not “just.” We take a lot of different factors and play styles into consideration.
I will laugh so hard if they remove NV and allow people to swap skills at will.
There are no current plans to remove NV, but we do feel like we there are ways that we could continue improve the system to allow for a broader variety of play styles (i.e. shorter play sessions, as mentioned).
I want NV on all levels, because honestly, those drops pre-level 60 are ultra terrible.
Just remove NV from the game, it simply does not belong in an action game.
At first I liked it too but the last few months it just feels like a huge waste of time. My barb can 5 stack on mp10 in around 10-12 minutes on average, thats nearly a quarter hour completely wasted per run. That time adds up and its not like the benefit from NV outweighs its time commitment.
I also agree it should apply from level 1 if it does remain, the fact that nightmare and hell bosses STILL drop nothing is a joke.
No end game, no middle game, no early game… 44 difficulties, I am preparing for major, major disappointment come PVPs release.
”My barb can 5 stack on mp10 in around 10-12 minutes on average, thats nearly a quarter hour completely wasted per run.” –> Thats not NV issue, thats retarded monster hp issue. Clear distinction. You’re not forced to run mp10 anyway…
NV is fine and fantastic, the only problem is losing all stacks if you change skills. And then they say they want build / character diversity in the game … haha! … when every character has same hp per level / vit point, there are autostats, no + skills, you can only have 6 skills at once, and you lose your hard earned NV stacks with a simple skill swap. And thats how the game becomes even much more gear based than D2. And the end result is way less build / char / gear variety than in D2. These things about D3 really irritate me, but anyway now I’m really deviating ….
They should change it to lose 1 or 2 stacks per skill change, and increase the number of stacks to 10 to reward players with more mf, and they feel like all the time taken is really worth it, and that really makes exploring the entire game world more feasible, where 1 run is an entire act and not limited to boring alk runs over and over. And since now above mp1+ all inferno has same ilvl63 droprate and such, you can do lots of varied runs in a single day.
The issue of going back to fast boss runs in D2 is stupid because the D3 bosses dont rly drop any better loot than elites or even white mobs…
“That time adds up and its not like the benefit from NV outweighs its time commitment.”
If you don’t believe the benefit of NV outweighs the time it takes to get it, why do you bother with it at all? If you think it is a net cost to your gameplay, then surely you should be changing out skills as you go and doing lots of 5-10 minute games for whatever the shortest farming route is for your character.
If not, then you’re lying.
Oh so sorry!
I dont farm the extremely boring one-shot-clears-the-screen mp0 Alkazier runs, because, they are BORING.
Why do I bother to get it? Because I AM REQUIRED TO FOR ANYTHING IN THIS GAME TO DROP, OR IN MY CASE KEYS AND/OR ORGANS… I farm keys on mp10, just play the game on mp10 or I will get on another character and piss around on whatever MP they can handle. 99% of my time in this game is now spent farming keys and organs. Key run on mp10 = 10-15 minutes in good conditions, 20ish in bad. I usually do ubers on mp8 with a group and that seldom takes longer than 25 minutes to do all said and done (5 stacks and the three portals.)
But because I am not a sheep following other sheep and farming the extremely boring mp0 then I MUST be making it up right?
The NV system is a joke.
Monsters are a lot easier to kill on mp9 and you still have near guaranteed chance to drop. Since mp9 mobs have 71% less hp, it means you will kill them 39% faster and you will get more keys per minute then you would otherwise. Just saying.
Again, you are addressing NV when you should be addressing retardedly high mp10 mob health.
You are admitting yourself, NV on lower mp levels is fine…
Pre 60?
Play with MP8 or 10 in normam mode and you will get amazing drops …
amazing drops lolo
+20str
+10vit
chest
or rare
+20str
+10vit
5exp per kill
and 2 yards pickup radius omg!!!
amazing drop!
How to change NV to fix this guy’s complaint:
1. Make NV not a timed buff — have it carry over across acts, game quits, etc.
2. Make each stack of NV worth (a lot less), but allow it to stack to something like 100 stacks.
3. Allow a system where players can designate to “cash in” their NV for a huge increase to drops / drop quality on the next elite, boss, resplendent chest, etc. they kill. This would remove all NV stacks.
4. Balance the system such that cashing in small stacks is roughly equivalent to killing 5ish elite packs/etc. with large stacks. i.e., cash in 2 NV stacks is about the same as killing 5 elite packs with 10-15 NV stacks. That way those who want to do short runs can get a relatively small payoff (like run through Core, cash in stacks on killing Azmodan) over and over, but those who do long runs get a large, perpetually-snowballing increase to their MF, along with a rare, huge payoff.
I think those ideas are very creative, but they will never make it as Blizzard targets the game for people with the IQ of a broomstick and thinks that they can’t work that out (and then they have corporate communications sell it as ‘We feel that you, our valued player, won’t have fun making decisions’).
I played D2 for many years, and although it did turn into Cows, Pind or Meph at the end for me it still had something that drew you back in. I’m not sure though whether this was the ultimate search for loot or the prospect of character specialisation.
What I’m trying to say is that did I run pind for 5 hours straight to find a windforce, or did I run for 5 hours to find some items which I could use to build another char in a specific way – a warcry only barbarian for example? I think its more likely to be the latter – and that is what is missing currently from D3.
NV has just extended this scenario a little – now I run Alkaizer on all 5 chars just like thousands of other people – it takes 15 mins give or take instead of the 2 or 3 min meph runs of old. Its the same thing just slightly longer.
Sadly in my opinion the Paragon levels have broken the concept of MF, as my barb continues to go up I remove the MF items, ultimately as Flux has said before MF will become a totally unwanted stat. Thats bad news I believe as we all used to eek every last tiny bit of MF out of chars and it was really noticeable in D2 on drops when you did this.
The solution? Well with so many factors to resolve its tricky – no surprise there, but Blizzard need to find some way to reignite that feeling of individuality, through build structure or items to allow it. PVP will help I think as items today that are scrapped will suddenly become very valuable – shields anyone?
I’ll continue to level and watch what they do.
Stopped reading when he said it takes 20 minutes to get a 5 stack.
People seem a little overly focused on “20 minutes.” OK, so he exaggerated a bit for effect. Get over it.
The real point is that in D3, unlike D2, it’s really not efficient or practical to just fire up the game and play a quick 2-5 minute farming session as a break. Even if you can build up 5 stacks in 2 minutes, if you quit the game a minute later, you’re getting less return on your time investment. Maybe that’s OK, maybe it’s not, but it’s certainly a difference, and it’s certainly at least partly due to the mechanics of Nephalem Valor.
It’s a “difference” but in the slightest. In the grand scheme of how much time people spend on computer games – including people who used to play Diablo II in five minute chunks – I don’t think that there is a meaningful difference spending 2-5 minutes in game vs let’s say 8-10. 20 minutes goes beyond slight exaggeration and is either a gross distortion or evidence of being an unusually slow player. Either way, it devalues his opinion.
What I think you’re really saying (and by inference perhaps the quoted player) is that Diablo III feels less rewarding than Diablo II. That’s a very different issue and I don’t think it’s specifically connected to NV but rather to itemization in general.
I don’t think that’s what I’m really saying
, but I do agree that it’s less rewarding. I don’t have a huge problem with the drop rate on legendaries or exceptionally good rares, but I feel like there’s a huge overabundance of awful items.
Maybe I’m remembering D2 fondly through the lens of nostalgia, but I feel like a good percentage of “bad” items were at least functional. The overwhelming majority of D3 weapons I get have damage numbers in the 200-400 range. If you tried to use one of those in Inferno, or even late Hell mode, you’d just die. In D2, you could buy a blue weapon from Larzuk, and although it wouldn’t be fantastic, you could at least kill something with it.
Using the “item slot machine” analogy Blizzard seems to like, if you go to Las Vegas and watch people playing the slot machines for an hour, obviously you probably won’t see anyone hit the super duper gazillion dollar jackpot. However, you will see lots of people hitting $5, $10, maybe $100 jackpots. Those keep you interested and encourage you to keep playing. I could easily do D3 item runs for an hour and not even find an item worth throwing on the auction house for 20k. That’s a problem.
Your comment goes back to an earlier and larger issue, though. The fact that D3 attempted to create a stable economy, which meant that uber items couldn’t be as easily-obtained. In D2 they could pop out like pez, and the great items could always be great with only limited variation, since there were ladder resets to fix inflation.
D3 much increased drops in v1.05 and it’s predictably leading to inflation, with only super quality items holding any real value. Imagine if every top quality legendary had say, a 25% chance of rolling a seed to be an awesome item (ala D2), instead of the current 1% chance?
I’m getting horrible post D2X 1.10+ deja vu’s here.
I found my best items without the 5 NV stack
I seem to have better luck when I have 2-4 stacks. But maybe it only seems that way because I only take note of how many stacks I have when I know I don’t have 5.
@ “Maybe this guy is playing on MP9 or something, but 20 minutes to get up 5 stacks is crazy. Fast farmers do entire Alkaizer runs in ~10 minutes, and that entails killing maybe… 25-30 bosses?”
When I run act 1, act 2 or act 4 inferno at MP1, it usually takes at least 10, mosty 15 minutes for me to get the 5 NV stacks.
If they really want to improve the NV system, however, they should make it available across ALL game difficulties because the rare/legendary/set drops from Normal to Hell are just pathetic.
I don’t know if I agree so much with either blizzard or the poster.
The only time the respec consideration comes up is when I’m trying something new (very rare, since I usually know what build I want and stick to it, I wouldn’t put forth the effort to spec for an individual pack because we don’t really need to anymore with better gear). This just amounts to screwing me when I’m trying a new build for ubers or something.
And while getting NV can be annoying for MF… it doesn’t really matter for that purpose. I know people will disagree with this, but lets be fair… MF is based on the RNG and the RNG will give you drops if it wants to regardless of your NV or MF%. So if he wants to do a quick run… then he should just do a quick run, disregarding NV. The better question is, what is he expecting to MF? Because if its a boss… good luck with those drops. (And yes, I know max stacks of NV can yield bonus drops, but still).
I’ve personally always felt like NV should be unlocked account wide once you hit 60 to help you get gear/low-legendaries/level-faster while playing on twink characters. Then again… I feel kind of the same about paragon levels, but I doubt anyone would agree with that. XD
Is flux calling elites monster bosses? Or he actually mean bosses?